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| | |-+  2nd D&E Platoon Did Not Exist---Read Why
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Author Topic: 2nd D&E Platoon Did Not Exist---Read Why  (Read 13901 times)
« Reply #4 on: Friday14August2009 »

Thanks Fergus for that reply, and yes I have no trouble believing what you say as your words seem to contain all the facts and no flowers.  However there are that many people throwing their ideas into the hat it about, If it did, why it didn't, why he said it did etc etc and the list goes on.  When it all boils down it makes one wonder, why these people do what they do and say what they say when they write these books.
« Reply #3 on: Friday14August2009 »


I reiterate, at the time they were all posted to HQ1ATF and allocated to the D&E PL. What I have said is not guesswork it is fact. Tate, Riddle and Colmer were all posted to 1 ARU either before or after Thua Tich or both, but at the time of Thua Tich they were all posted to HQ 1ATF and allocated to the D&E Pl, they chose to nickname their posting as the "2nd D&E Pl" because the D&E Pl had been temporarily increased with a group of in transit soldiers , who had not completed twelve months service in Vietnam when their Battalions returned to Australia - believe it.


« Reply #2 on: Thursday13August2009 »

Hi Guys,
Now I know this may sound Odd Ball, but, could the soldiers that are being thrown around for the 2nd D&E Pl, be soldiers from IARU or what ever it was called and used as a ready fix for a few weeks?
Just asking?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday13August2009 »


The author of the previous email has missed the crux of Tate's argument. 

It is Tate's contention that the "2nd D&E Pl" was raised by the Commander 1ATF without doing the paper work, and without getting the approvals, and therefore it was illegally raised and because of that, its existence had to be corruptly expunged from all records by the Commander.
You and I know that the Commander was simply using men temporarily posted to HQ 1ATF and allocated to D&E Pl to do a job. Tate, in his inexperience and ignorance of matters military has misconstrued the Commander's action with stupid assumptions, wrong conclusions and claims of corruption and cover up.
All of the procedures and paperwork you have described are irrelevant and only complicate a very simple scenario.
« Last Edit: Thursday13August2009 by Fergus » Logged
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« on: Thursday13August2009 »

From: xxxxxxxxxx
To: (Aust Veteran Matters)
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 7:51 PM

Other Clerks might have an input as well.




For the learned within our ranks I apologise now for short cutting, getting some titles etc incorrect, as I have been out of the service for 23 years, but did serve for the last 13 odd years of my service as a Clerk finishing up as a Chief Clerk.


There has been some very strong talk lately about a 2nd D & E Pl of the ATF in Svn.   This  so called unit has caused a lot grief through out the Vietnam Veteran Community, some for and some against.  A lot, sitting on the side line, not knowing which way to fall.


Personally, I can not see or find  any historical documentation as to the formation of a 2nd D & E Platoon.   If the Pl did exist, it would have appeared on the Order Of Battle (ORBAT) of the Aust Task Force (1ATF) South Vietnam.   There is a lot of talk about the unit being raised etc, and I have come to the conclusion that a sub unit of D & E Pl was sent out to do a particular job.  I believe the Commander at the time decided for reason of expediency that a large force was NOT required and therefore sent a sub unit out to complete the task which he allotted to them.  (Why send a Bull Dozer to do a job when a shovel can be used instead.)   It is believed that this Sub Unit was operational for 8 to 14 days. (I could stand corrected on this information).


To officially have a unit raised takes more than the say so of any person.   The Comd can direct his troops anyway he wishes, but I doubt very much if he has the authority to raise a unit for a short time operation and have it on the ORBAT of 1 ATF.   It would have been listed on the Battle Board at ATF Comd CP as a sub unit, with a little flag, its C/S with a (-) next to it.  The (-) is indicating a smaller unit of larger force of the same group.   When the unit returned to base its personnel were sent back to there tents and normal duties etc, and the little flag wiped from the Battle Board. 


If this so called 2nd D&E Pl was raised as stated then the following course of action needed to be taken:


A full submission would have to be raised listing all requirements for it raising would required the minimum.

a.        The Operation Requirements

b.        The Manning Requirements, and

c.        The Equipment Table.


The Operational requirements would list the Capabilities, Tasks, Comd and Control of the new unit just to mention a few.

The Manning Requirements is a lot more complex.   The requirement here is to list all       Offrs, SNCO’s JNCO and Ors.   They would be listed by Position, Employment, Numbers required,  etc.  All this information forms the Establishment Entitlement of a unit.

The Equipment Table.   Hells Bells, this includes all weapons by type, Vehicles if required, specialist equipment depending on the task of unit as shown in the Ops Requirement..

Let’s now assume that all this has been done.   Between other Job requirements such as briefing etc the person would take at least 1 week to have this submission in some form of order.


The Submission would have then gone to HQ Coy 1 ATF as the HQ unit of D & E Pl.   It would have been checked and if no errors found copied and forwarded to HQ 1 ATF under a recommendation letter.    HQ 1 ATF would have split the submission into its 3 categories, Ops, Pers and Log for vetting and comments.   This would be at least another 10 days sitting in “in trays” etc.  We are now at 3 weeks.   If by chance HQ 1 ATF agreed with the submission it would then be forwarded to Aust Armed Forces Comd in Saigon.   It would do the same here as at ATF.   Taking at least another week to get through there system.  (All the time some sort of record of Correspondence in/out would be maintained to track documents.)


Lets say AF HQ Svn agree.   It would now be forward to D Inf at AHQ Canberra, at least a week in the mail. (Now 5 weeks)   Were D Inf would do the same, split it into it 3 areas, and get all the information together to forward the proposal up the chain.   14 days would be a good round number at D Inf. (7 Weeks) It would be forwarded to COGS and his officers again for checking etc. An other 2 weeks (9Weeks)  and if HQ Aust Army agree, it would have been forwarded to the Minister, who would have sent it to God knows who in government, but Treasury would be one.   It would linger in Parliament for I don’t know how long, but let’s go with 5 weeks.  We are now at 14 weeks.   If the Government agrees and allocates further funding to the Defence Force they would give approval for the raising of the unit.


Once past by the two houses , the submission then goes back to AHQ, and the procedure to have and Establishment  and Equipment Numbers issued.   Gives these 2 weeks. (16 weeks)

Copies of the approval would have to be sent to all states Military HQ as the new Unit is now on the ORBAT.   CARO would be responsible for posting of Soldiers to the new unit,   where are they going to come from?  D Inf for SNCO and WO if required, where are these coming from?   Officer/s again where are they to come from?


By the time this gets back to HQ 1ATF we are well and truly onto more than 20 weeks, if it runs this smoothly.


We haven’t finished yet.   Offr/SNCO and Ors have to be posted to the unit; all stores and equipment as per the Equipment have to be issued.


At every step of the way, copies would have to be taken for the relevant files held by each Comd, Ops, Pers and Log Branches within each Comd.  HQ Coy, 1 ATF, HQ AFV, DInf, CARO and so on up the chain.


With some people coming up with the story that the Army has no record of the unit only leads to one answer.   There was NO 2nd D&E Pl.   The time frame and the paper trail is horrendous.


The fact that the so called 2nd D&E Pl was only deployed for a week or so, tells me again that no person in there right mind raises a unit with all the so called paperwork etc, then a couple of weeks later disband it.      I would hate to have been that person who would have to go through the whole lot again to get it of the ORBAT, after such a short existence.   I would tell you now that the Senior Officers of the Army would not be happy chappies if this was the case.


This will be banded about but as I stated before there would be some sort of mistakes in the above, because of my time out of the military, but the general rule applies.   You need approval to get a new unit onto the ORBAT.  That approval must come direct from AHQ after receiving authority from the Government of the day.   


The other point as well, all this would have been done with a typewriter and gestetner printer.  There were no quick and easy computers back in those days, add another couple of weeks.


Sorry, to the believers that the 2nd D & E Pl existed.   IT DID NOT.
« Last Edit: Thursday13August2009 by Cassius » Logged

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