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Tate hates Vietnam Vets like the War Protestors Did
2,370 Posts in 148 Topics by 217 Members
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CD
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« Reply #337 on: Sunday29November2009 »

Oh dear, I made 1 (one) observation and what happens?  The "idiot" that answered my post, according to the language, must be a member of the MG. Ho hum. Sad
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john
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« Reply #336 on: Sunday29November2009 »

This is for the idiot who obviously knows all i have never claimed to represent young veterans. I have set this organisation up so that the young ones if they wish can take it over when they want. At least i'm doing something real instead of proving what a bitch i am. This is my last post on this site you are obviously a bunch of whinging arseholes who do nothing but complain about those who are doing real things helping those military people who need help. you are past help.
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CD
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« Reply #335 on: Sunday29November2009 »

65 years of age and he is representing "young" veterans?Huh Huh
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john
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« Reply #334 on: Saturday28November2009 »

Hi all, my name is John Jarrett and i am the president of young diggers australia. We are an online welfare organisation and operate in association with the Goodna RSL sub-branch and services club, but remain independant in operation. As someone said that anyone can get the information our site supplies, the answer to that is of course they can if they know where to look. All of our officers are TIP trained. We are funded mainly by sponsors like the Goodna RSL and Ipswich city council and the Australian Defence Credit Union etc. My wife and i funded the start up and site etc and dont expect to claim any of that cost back. All of our members are serving, ex-serving, partners of or the spouse of one of these categories. or the child of ADF or NZ defence forces.
What we do:
When we are contacted, remember we are mainly welfare, we communicate with the person and when they are ready we refer them to the appropriate people like the VVCS or a pensions officer in their area, or just be there for them when they need a hand up. We are currently writing a new site that goes a long way further now that we know more of what is needed.
I did serve in 2sqn 1967-68 in Phan Rang and before that in Malaya. Mervyn John Jarrett is my full name and for some reason my parents always called me John.
If you want to know more please just ask me instead of others. Regards John Jarrett
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D371
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« Reply #333 on: Monday23November2009 »

Hi all,

I came across this new "ESO" in the Sunday paper (youngdiggers.com.au).
Does anyone know of them and are they bona fide?
Their website has no registered office, no names of committee's etc, no nothing but they remain totally anonymous and request donations to their cause. helping younger veterans.
The info on the webpage is minimal and can be obtained from numerous sources.
The "President" is Mervyn John Perritt, ex 2 Sqn 67 - 68.
The only contact is via email at "john@---------" or angela@------".
Donations can be made electronically.
Can someone in Qld check this out, please. The alarm bells are ringing.
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phillip
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« Reply #332 on: Thursday19November2009 »

The nominal roll of allthose who served at Maraling, Navy Army Airforce and civilians, is all published in a book titled "Preliminary Nominal Roll of Australian Participants in British Atomic Tests in Australia", it was published in 2001 by DVA, it is  ISBN 0-642-48739-1 and is available through public libraries.  I do know that there is a copy in the Corangamite Regional Library at Colac, and if you want to borrow the book and your local library does not have it, tell them of that copy and they can most likely get it for you on inter-library loan.  With this book published and freely available to anybody, I cannot understand why DVA removed the Nominal Roll from the site, they told me they removed it because their legal branch told them it is classified confidential - what a load of bull, how could that be so when the book is in the public domain, available for anybody to borrow from the library.  I have scanned the list of all Army people who served there, as I knew so many of them, but the whole list is there in that book for you to see.

I posted this same information on this site last week, and for some reason I cant find it - hope I didnt put it on the wrong thread.
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Steel
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« Reply #331 on: Thursday19November2009 »

Phillip

 The new ANVA site is now located here.

http://www.sandersonsite.com/anva/

Looks much the same as it did before

by the way, for other readers, this is Wiltshires comment in the guest book.

MadGalah back again. Site is starting to take shape. Many thanks to the Host.
By the way: Hope you've got a deep hole handy, 'Tom Vincent'. YOU'RE SPRUNG.
(along with some of your closet maggots).
Sleep Well.
« Last Edit: Thursday19November2009 by Steel » Logged
phillip
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« Reply #330 on: Thursday19November2009 »

noticed on the new guestbook of the ANVA that dodger 39 mentioned below that Wilshire has now made two posts, looks like the madgalahs have taken over the site from the Austrtalian Nuclear Veterans Association, because there have been no other posts on the site since Wilshire started to make posts, he thanks the webmaster for his good work, so I guess we can now expect it will become the madgalah site, after bigpond took away the rights of the ANVA to have a site for free.

Notice that the people at ANVA who used to remove any message they did not like, any that asked questions about their organisation, or did not give an email address, were always removed, but also noticed the message by wilshire with no email address and very little detail are not removed, which leads me to believe they, the madgalahs, have taken over the site.
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theo
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« Reply #329 on: Saturday31October2009 »

Woodies, your kind offers of the old nominal roll and the Normandy photos that have been circulating on the email superhighway lately are appreciated. If you find that forum members are reluctant to take you up on your offers, it's probably because: (a) some members have seen the photos already, and/or (b) most members would be pretty wary of falling prey to the deviants who are attempting to obtain forum members' personal details in order to harass, threaten and harm them for exposing malpractice. I imagine that your requests for personal details and direct contact with forum members would put many members on high alert right now. (Read some of the more recent correspondence in the forum.)

It's unfortunate that this is the case, as your offers could be quite genuine and innocent and I for one wouldn't mind a peek at the original Roll. Never mind, I'll have to suspend my curiosity for now! Thanks anyway.
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theo
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« Reply #328 on: Saturday31October2009 »

Woodies, your kind offers of the old nominal roll and the Normandy photos that have been circulating on the email superhighway lately are appreciated. If you find that forum members are reluctant to take you up on your offers, it's probably because: (a) some members have seen the photos already, and/or (b) most members would be pretty wary of falling prey to the deviants who are attempting to obtain forum members' personal details in order to harass, threaten and harm them for exposing malpractice. I imagine that your requests for personal details and direct contact with forum members would put many members on high alert right now. (Read some of the more recent correspondence in the forum.)

It's unfortunate that this is the case, as your offers could be quite genuine and innocent and I for one wouldn't mind a peek at the original Roll. Never mind, I'll have to suspend my curiosity for now! Thanks anyway.
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dpwoodies
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« Reply #327 on: Saturday31October2009 »

As an advocate I have a lot of personal research collected over  the years I have copies of the nominal roll originally issued by DVA and then later withdrawn. If anyone wishes to see if their details are there please  respond via this listing and   with your full names and Branch of f service and I will endeavour to assist you. David Woodcock Silkstone Queensland. alternatively contact me via <dpwoodies@gmail.com>
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dpwoodies
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« Reply #326 on: Saturday31October2009 »

Hi a friend has sent me two power point presentations Normandy then & now is 6.5 mg and the Sydney Harbour bridge is 2.5mg if you wish I can upload them to your site and the list may wish to download them for themselves,children or grand children  as they are a very good presentation or they can contact me direct.
David Woodcock Silkstone Queensland.[email][/email <dpwoodies@gmail.com>
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theo
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« Reply #325 on: Friday30October2009 »

Well done, that man!
« Last Edit: Saturday31October2009 by Theo » Logged
Zion
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« Reply #324 on: Friday30October2009 »

AVM has deleted the APPVA post as you have noted. The administrator made a posting which asked all who were involved to put forth their PROOF. The haranguing and arguing continued.

AVM privately contacted the originator of the threads and asked that member to lay out the PROOF.

Despite our requests there was no suitable response from all parties.

The thread was deleted for the reasons some have stated. It was all accusation hyperbole and hot air and no proof.
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Zion
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« Reply #323 on: Wednesday28October2009 »

AVM wishes to REPEAT. This matter is not a trivial matter. It is very critical and important to allow all members and readers to navigate their way through the AVM systems.

If you want AVMs opinion go to www.austvetmatters.net This is the AVM WEBSITE. It is NOT a forum.

If you want to read the opinion of members who have registered with the avm FORUM click here http://austvetmatters.net/avmforum/index.php This is the FORUM. The forum is NOT the AVM website. Sometimes some AVM members, as opposed to avm registered forum members, will publish stuff in the forum. AVM members are those who either own or coordinate the operation of the avm systems.

The website is a different place to the FORUM.
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Zion
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« Reply #322 on: Sunday25October2009 »

Hello,
If you subscribe to the AVM email lists and you fail to empty your mail box and AVMs emails bounce five times this system automatically UNSUBSCRIBES you. This is done automatically without any human intervention and is designed to eliminate invalid email addresses. If the system has unsubed you recently and you wish to remain a member just register again.
AVM
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dodger39
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« Reply #321 on: Wednesday21October2009 »

Look here Phillip

  http://cooberpedyregionaltimes.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/nuclear-veterans-disappointed-as-their-website-is-closed-down/

The guest book can still be accessed here

http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=anva1&i=1&a=view
« Last Edit: Wednesday21October2009 by dodger39 » Logged
phillip
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« Reply #320 on: Wednesday21October2009 »

Bigpond have finally woken up to the ANVA and taken away their free website, it has closed down, and about time.  they have had a site free of charge with bigpond for some years now, and I think Bigpond must monitor those they give free sites to, as it was suddenly taken off line and has vanished form the web some time about a week ago - hooray, they did nothing good for veterans, so without a site to crow about how good they are, they can now do no bad either.
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80s
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« Reply #319 on: Tuesday20October2009 »

I have done a bit of research into Mr Mylne and it appears he is a stand up guy, perhaps just another duped by "The Brain". Mylne was involved in the Airmobile Ambulance and apparently was involved in quite a few hot extractions and served in 8 RAR as a medic. He was not one of the many VVs who never left the wire of Nui Dat. After SVN he was a stuffed unit, alcoholic and always in the poo. He was made TPI and he got himself detoxed and sorted. He attended Uni to study law as it helped to focus him and get his mind off the past. He has been able to keep himself pretty much poo free since then.

It appears that he does alot of good work representing Veterans and does some of it for free, especially when a veteran is not entitled to legal aid. So I guess thats another angle on Mr Mylne. Was he duped or was he complicit. Up to each of us to decide I guess.

80s
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80s
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« Reply #318 on: Monday19October2009 »

Raspe's email back then:

veteran08nam@adam.com.au
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80s
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« Reply #317 on: Monday19October2009 »

Yes how are they able to study when they are so F@#ked up by there condition as to rate a TPI?

Its a joke.

80s
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Cavalry
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« Reply #316 on: Sunday18October2009 »

Are we talking about that Scottish gentleman Mr Mylne. One day he is well, then the next a TPI so he could study for his degree. When he graduates he is then well again, surrenders his TPI and is now a lawyer.   
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80s
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« Reply #315 on: Saturday17October2009 »

I always new Raspe was a lying lowlifw dog since having run in s with him on the ASAC forum (now defunct I think). He was a slimebag on there threatening others and their children via email or Private Messages. Hope u are reading this JohnR. You are a wannabee, a disgrace to the RAN. He was on ASAC trying to find support, info and photos to support his bogus claims back then. Total loser.

Here is an example of the sort of emails he would send.

In return of your reply, I have written the following

 

XXXX was an Orderly desk jockey in Rwanda

No way is he a real man nothing but a pen pusher

Alas! The reason, he hides behind it’s computer

 

Whatever medals he stole, should be reported to the ANZMI,

The truth will come out in the end for Jason

Then he will have to get over it and return the medals


And

I see you are still badgering me as well as hiding behind your computer as usual  but that right, that is all you did in Rwanda …HIDE BEHIND YOUR DESK instead of being a REAL MAN

80s



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Zion
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« Reply #314 on: Tuesday13October2009 »

From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: Veteran Fraud Interview

From: B. J. Billing

Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 11:45 AM

Subject: Veteran Fraud Interview

LISTEN HERE   

http://www.abc.net.au:80/cgi-bin/common/player_launch.pl?s=rn/breakfast_item&d=rn/breakfast/audio/items&r=bst_13102009_0806.ram&w=bst_13102009_0806.asx&t=War

vet frauds - 13 October 2009

13 October 2009

War vet frauds

Medals of honour

It's fair to say that there's no more respected group in Australia than our war veterans. Every Anzac Day we cheer on the men and women who fought for their country, among them those who performed daring and extremely brave acts in a theatre of war. Those Australians now receive benefits to acknowledge that service and in some cases to compensate them for lifelong injuries.

But, sadly, it now appears some who never served have been taking advantage of what's recognised as generous war service entitlements. Not only that, these frauds have also been presenting themselves as war heroes -- and even wearing military medals. Several new cases have come to light after Queensland man Rex Crane, the former national president of the Ex-POW Association, was exposed as a fraud.

Guests

Barry Billing

Deputy President of the Vietnam Veteran's Association

Reporter

Mike Woods

Radio National often provides links to external websites to complement program information. While producers have taken care with all selections, we can neither endorse nor take final responsibility for the content of those sites.

Monday to Friday 6am to 8.30am

Presented by
Fran Kelly
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phillip
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« Reply #313 on: Tuesday13October2009 »

I have just checked the ANVA site again today, the message from Jim Wilshire is still there, and the message I posted, and the one a friend of mine posted has been deleted, as mentioned before

If any AVM members have made posts since I last looked, then if you check their site you will find that your posts have been deleted as well

surely something can be done about a group who claim they are only working to assist nuclear veterans, yet they appear to support the Mad Galahs, and what that mad mob can do for nuclear veterans is beyond my understanding.

how about a lot of posts by AVM members objecting to their support of the Mad Galahs, that may help

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Fergus Fairfax
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« Reply #312 on: Wednesday07October2009 »

Mother Quick  http://www.anzmi.net/quick/quick.html

Brain http://www.anzmi.net/brain/brain.html
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Zion
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« Reply #311 on: Wednesday07October2009 »

From: xxxxxxx
To: AUSTRALIAN VETERAN MATTERS
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:07 PM
Subject:Re: VV CALLS ON GOVERNMENT TO ACT ON FRAUDS.

To Minister Griffin


Sir,
I hope that you and your office do all within your power to disencourage
this scourge of Wannabees and the monies they leech out of the Public
System.

I as a TPI, some years ago, whilst still quite ill, was overpaid a sum of
monies. DVA was quick and unsympathatic, (as they should be), in requiring I
repay promptly, to avoid interest penalties, the sum of $8000; which I did
by taking out a loan to do so.

Please at least treat these thieving frauds the same way as I was treated.

I ask this as a son of a Veteran. a Veteran, and the father of a Veteran.
Thank You
Regards
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
« Last Edit: Wednesday07October2009 by Spartakus » Logged

Nuidat68
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« Reply #310 on: Wednesday07October2009 »

yes what that Mother Quick done was discraceful and he deserved to pay back all the monies take, But jail time for this bloke who by the way was a vietnam veteran who was attached to HQ 1ATF.
He made up some furfies that he did lots of time with D&E Platoon 1ATF during his tour but some vets from that platoon and time said he never went out with them & i believe that was proven in the law court when he had to front. But in my opinion he should not have been jailed maybe community work & repay all the monies owing to DVA even if its up until his death.
Beause there are many more worse Frauds & Wanabee's than Kevin "Mother" Quick ".
Thats my opinion, blokes like Arthur Brain & this Crane are much much worse, They never left the bloody country. Also a fella by the name of Geoff McGibbon vice chairman of the sydney Welcome home never served in vietnam yet fooled all when he paraded as an SAS Vietnam vet in Chicago welcome home & Sydney Welcome home committee, he was only found out a month or so before the sydney Parade or im 100 per cent sure he would have been marching with the bigs wigs or standing on the Sydney Town Hall with Peter Poulton "AM" & the then Prime minister Bob Hawk as these wankers dont stop until they are caught & then so dont even stop then.
NuiDat 68.
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Zion
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« Reply #309 on: Wednesday07October2009 »

EMAIL TO DVA MINISTER FROM VV

From: XXXXXXXX
To: Griffin, Alan (MP)
Cc: alanGriffinmp
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 9:55 AM
Subject:Fw: "Top Bloke"?


Alan
this is the thing I was telling you about the general public & Media as well as some vets ending up supporting these wankers and its about time the Government spent some money on a TV & media  campaign to tell the public how serious this problem is.

I reckon the government would say money as just two that I know of Mr Brain $90,000 and Arthur Crane $400,000 the government must do something about these blokes the general public & even some vets need to be told of this and its penalties  for doing so.

Alan  just to let you know that even vet associations want to forgive these blokes here XXXXXXX a blokes was running around with yank medals on for years and we knew him as "Chucky" and he was the vet ambassador for the "Yanks Down Under Post No 2 " and come along to all XXXXXX "XXXXXX " of the VVA. This bloke also was Post No 2 rep at all American Brisbane Ambassador functions. He also greeted a group of Yank Viet vets who were visiting the "XXXXXX VVA" & they could not fault his accent . Anyways this bloke was found dead in his car under a bridge here, it was found out that's where he use to sleep and as the VVA committee were going to bury him they found out that he had never served in the USA military forces nor any other. They found out he was a native New Zealander who had gone to acting classes & took on the role of a decorated American Vietnam vet. This was found out when they tracked down his wife who was also from New Zealand.

Now get this even though they knew he was a Fraud & wanabee the XXXXXX Branch of the VVA want to bury him because they said he was "A GOOD BLOKE" that's "BS" he was a fraud & should have been buried as such. Sorry about these long winded email Alan but it shows these blokes will go to great lengths to fool the government & Returned Veteran community & we are bloody sick of it and even worse is nothing seems to be getting done about it to pull these frauds up.

If a returned vet was to be over paid I can guarantee that over paid money would come out of his or her next veterans pension payment & so should the monies from these frauds be repaid even if its up until they leave this earth.
Cheers Alan.

XXXXXXXXXX


* cranfraudpic.jpg (94.99 KB, 889x612 - viewed 1675 times.)
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cavman
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« Reply #308 on: Sunday04October2009 »


Bloke named Kevin Quick was convicted and gaoled for basically the same thing a couple of years ago.
Even before that, there was an earlier case in South Aust - namely, DPP v Tugwell [1996] SASC 5563 in the SA Supreme Court. 
Tugwell got  28 months gaol with a non-parole period of 12 months and 2-year good behavour bond. 
He was convicted of  receiving a pension to which he was not entitled and lying to the VRB. 
He was also done for making false statements to FDVA regarding his his disability pension and also his service pension.
Hopefully the DPP will also do the same with this new one.  They usually initiate the prosecution based on the reports of their own investigators. 
However, seeing the Minister has called in the AFP on tis one, there's a pretty good chance he'll be arrested and charged criminally charged.
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Zion
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« Reply #307 on: Sunday04October2009 »

From: xxxxxxxxx
To: Griffin, Alan (MP);admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 6:45 AM
Subject: LETS HOPE ITS NOT ALL TALK ( ITS ABOUT TIME TO DO SOMETHING )


Alan
Truly its about time something is done about this blokes even if he is 83 doesn't matter. I sat in the xxxxxx courthouse and watched as a Fraud wanabee Vietnam vet get off almost scott free, his name was "Arthur Brain" and he posed as a Viet vet for yrs here on xxxxxx. He defrauded the Commonwealth Government DVA of $90,000 and because of a hiccup he didn't have to pay a cent back the DVA should have appealed that ruling.

Alan get this he was represented in all his court appearances by a solicitor who himself was a Vietnam veteran will never understand that one. It was like Rex Crane's friend who was on TV last night after all Crane has done he said!!! He is still my mate, they tell such a story that people really feel sorry for them even when it is proven that they are lies and cheats. Alan the only way to try and stamp out these thieves of others brave deeds is to put the full force of the law onto them ( Federal Police ) they have the powers to go after these blokes but have been unwilling to do so in the past,why we can only guess.

Alan there are many of us in the veteran community who would gladly  help the DVA bring these blokes who steal from others who are  returned veterans as we run into them all the time but more so leading up to any kind of veterans gatherings they come out of the woodwork . Alan just give us the right people to contact about these would be hero's and we the returned veterans could  be your best alli as we detest them much more than the Government ( DVA )  so just point us in the right direction and I will let all my contacts know  Where and who to go to about these Frauds.

Thank goodness something might be at last done about these veteran Frauds. Hope to see you in xxxx again soon Alan and under your leadership we might get to see more of these people in our Court's of Law.

Cheers Alan.

xxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message -----
From: xxxxxx
To: xxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:49 PM
Subject: FW: LETS HOPE ITS NOT ALL TALK

From Allan Griffin
 

VA087                                                                                                                 Saturday, 3 October 2009

 

Statement on Rex Crane 

This statement is regarding the article on Rex Crane in the Sydney Morning Herald, the Age and the West Australian published today, Saturday 3 October 2009.

I am aware of Mr Crane’s case and have been briefed by my Department. 

I have directed my Department to refer this case to the Australian Federal Police.  This occurred on Thursday, 1 October 2009.

 This is a very serious matter.

I know these allegations will be distressing for the veteran community and I fully understand why.  Those who have sacrificed so much for our country are rightly outraged when fraud of this nature occurs.
 

Personally, I think for anyone to impersonate a prisoner of war is disgusting.  It is a betrayal of all the values our veterans stand for.

I have very strong feelings about this and need to stress the gravity of the situation.
 

My Department works hard to protect the repatriation system and ensure people who deserve entitlements are those who are actually getting them.  There are reasons why we are so strict with the operation of the system and why some claims take time to examine.

 
Should these allegations be proven, it will illustrate to what lengths some individuals will go to to defraud our system and the large amounts of money that can be involved.

This matter should be pursued to the fullest extent of the law and I am confident that the AFP will do so. 

 I eagerly await the outcome of that investigation.


Minister for Veterans’ Affairs

The Hon Alan Griffin MP

From: xxxx
To: Griffin, Alan (MP);admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:16 AM
Subject: Hero to zero: the lies of a 'POW'


Alan
Good Morning, for some anyway. Next time I see you I must tell you about a Fraud Wanabee who paraded as a SAS Vietnam veteran his name is Geoff McGibbon and he got to be the Vice Chairman of the Vietnam Veterans welcome Home in Sydney and he was found out just before the Sydney parade kicked off in Oct 86. This bloke was vouched for by two true SAS Vietnam vets who lived in canberra where McGibbon also lived, this bloke was good he started the Canberra SAS Association and recruited all real returned SAS veterans to his bogie association. He also set himself up as the Secretary so he could check all incoming mail and  keep a lid on his charade.

 Alan I know he was vouched for because I was the digger who asked these two real SAS Viet vets if they could vouch for McGibbon.

So they crawl in and take over, McGibbon was the reason I resigned from the Sydney Committee of the Welcome home a couple months before it was due to happen as I had fallen out with this Fraud big time and for the harmony of all I stepped down something I will always regret but its what the committee wanted McGibbon or xxxxx they chose McGibbon.

So you see how these grubs get into decent people's lives Alan. I was one veteran who can Proudly say I helped get McGibbon's "OAM" rescinded and that I will be forever delighted about. So things can be done about these scumbags lets all work together to rid them of our company .

See Attached from a public website on these 2 frauds.
Regards Alan

xxxxxxxx

 
http://www.theage.com.au/national/hero-to-zero-the-lies-of-a-pow-20091002-ggl2.html
 
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phillip
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« Reply #306 on: Sunday04October2009 »

I spoke to a friend of mine on Friday who served with me in the Army, and was aware of the madgalah group, he had read some of the AVN stuff about them.  I told him about the post by Jim Wilshire on the ANVA site, so he went on and tried to make a post.  He put in his two bobs worth, but then when he tried to post his message, he tried six times and each time he got a message saying that he had not copied the code letters correctly at the bottom of the page.  He said he was so careful to make sure each time that he copied the letters and numbers exactly, but he continued to get the same message, so in the end he gave up.  Has anybody else tried to make a post in regard to the mad galahs and had the same problem.  It is almost as if a post that mentions them must have had some sort of bar placed on their site since the posting by the bloke who wrote the last message telling people to avoid the mad galahs idiot group.  I know my own posting was removed very quickly, but the one posted a few days ago is still there, but as I said, my mate could not make a post in similar fashion.  He told me he made a post that said the mad galahs, even though they were in most cases not old enough to have served at maralinga, they had obviously been there as teenagers or younger, and had jobs to stand close to where the bombs went off to advise the defence department of the amount of heat generated, and their brains were fried, hence their recent posts on all sites, the result of the fried brains.  He said he posted something like this, and that was the post that he could not get accepted.
Perhaps others could try, but I guess it does need to be established if this ANVA are supporters of the madgalah group, if anybody has the time to do so
« Last Edit: Sunday04October2009 by phillip » Logged
Zion
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« Reply #305 on: Saturday03October2009 »

Read the full article with pic here http://www.smh.com.au/national/pow-chief-a-prisoner-of-his-own-lies-20091002-ggid.html
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Fergus
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« Reply #304 on: Saturday03October2009 »

Recently Rex Crane a high profile ex POW “wannabe” and fraud got “outed” in national newspapers, resulting in Jim Wiltshire writing this dazzling bit of logic.

“From: Jim Wiltshire
To: Hunter@TV.com.au
Sent: Saturday, 3 October 2009 11:33 AM
Subject: THE HUNTERS AND THE HUNTED. WHICH IS WHICH?

A classic example of why ANZMI and the maggot AVM is a waste of space.
In the main they leave the high profile people alone and concentrate on 'the little man/woman' who cannot possibly fight back.

Elderly civilians and impoverished genuine Veterans appear to be high in their sights. As an aside, I wonder if there are any 'high profile personages' among their own ranks, and if so, why have they adopted a 'hands-off' policy? Or haven't they thought to 'investigate' themselves?  And of course they assume that 'lack of Evidence otherwise" is proof of guilt. Hardly a high quality investigative technique. Not my cup of tea.

JimW”


Jim you should know all about ANZMI because you were one of them when they were known as CPMH. We are reliably told that fortunately for CPMH/ANZMI they realized that your over zealous nature and inability to put together cogent evidence led to your being sacked with ignominy.

Jim we are prepared to make ourselves unpopular with ANZMI by publishing any evidence to support what you have said about ANZMI, please produce the facts that disprove any of the work they have done, surely you as an ex insider should be able to do that?

Hey Jim, when your autobiography is published don’t forget to include your time with CPMH/ANZMI.  You could include a nice little chapter about how you helped to “out” Owen Eather – see here http://www.anzmi.net/eather/eather.html   

As you know your Mad Galah mate Barry Corse and Owen Eather are good buddies, have you ever confessed to Barry Corse regarding Owen Eather?

Jeeeeez Jim you Mad Galah blokes have hides like elephants. Your hypocrisy is breathtaking and only surpassed by your ability to dream up conspiracy theories, for instance you are saying that ANZMI conspire to only “out” the little guy, was that policy when you were there?

Come on Jim, you are the only person I know who served with ANZMI so give us some information – but then again, maybe you are an ANZMI  “sleeper” in the Mad Galah mob and one day you will be able to reveal all.

Can’t wait for your book.

Aye

Fergus
« Last Edit: Saturday03October2009 by Spartakus » Logged
Zion
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« Reply #303 on: Saturday03October2009 »

From: xxxxxxxxx
To:admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:05 AM
Subject: Statement on Rex Crane



VA087                                                                                                                 Saturday, 3 October 2009

Statement on Rex Crane 

This statement is regarding the article on Rex Crane in the Sydney Morning Herald, the Age and the West Australian published today, Saturday 3 October 2009.

I am aware of Mr Crane’s case and have been briefed by my Department. 

I have directed my Department to refer this case to the Australian Federal Police.  This occurred on Thursday, 1 October 2009.

This is a very serious matter.

I know these allegations will be distressing for the veteran community and I fully understand why.  Those who have sacrificed so much for our country are rightly outraged when fraud of this nature occurs. 

Personally, I think for anyone to impersonate a prisoner of war is disgusting.  It is a betrayal of all the values our veterans stand for.

I have very strong feelings about this and need to stress the gravity of the situation.

My Department works hard to protect the repatriation system and ensure people who deserve entitlements are those who are actually getting them.  There are reasons why we are so strict with the operation of the system and why some claims take time to examine.

Should these allegations be proven, it will illustrate to what lengths some individuals will go to to defraud our system and the large amounts of money that can be involved.

This matter should be pursued to the fullest extent of the law and I am confident that the AFP will do so. 

I eagerly await the outcome of that investigation.

Minister for Veterans’ Affairs

The Hon Alan Griffin MP

Media inquiries: Sasha Nimmo 0437 863 109

The VVCS – Veterans and Veterans Families Counselling Service can be contacted 24 hours a day, seven days a week on 1800 011 046.

To receive the Minister’s media releases automatically by email subscribe at minister.dva.gov.au/subscribe.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT
1. Before opening any attachments, please check for viruses.
2. This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain confidential information
for the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient,
please contact the sender and delete all copies of this email.
3. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and are not
a statement of Australian Government Policy unless otherwise stated.
4. Electronic addresses published in this email are not conspicuous publications and DVA does not consent to the receipt of commercial electronic messages.
5. To unsubscribe from emails from the Department of Veterans' Affairs (DVA) please go to
http://www.dva.gov.au/contact_us/Pages/feedback.aspx
, and advise which mailing list you would like to unsubscribe from.

6. Finally, please do not remove this notice.


From: xxxxxxxxx
To:admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:14 AM
Subject: POW chief a prisoner of his own lies


POW chief a prisoner of his own lies
October 3, 2009
 
(Clockwise) Outram Road jail in Singapore, Rex Crane at a POW service in Ballarat last February, members of Crane's association pictured in 2007. Photo: Ballarat Courier

EXCLUSIVE A supposed World War Two hero admits he is a liar and a fraud, reports Linton Besser.

Life was hell inside Outram Road Jail, a Singaporean punishment compound during the Second World War. It was ''the worst jail there ever was'', a survivor of the Burma-Thai railway, Cyril Gilbert, told the Herald.

And it is where Gilbert's close friend, Rex Crane, claims to have been incarcerated after he was captured by the Japanese in May 1942. At just 15 years of age, Gilbert and many others believed Crane had been one of Australia's youngest POWs. Crane, who is now 83 and has been on the highest-level service pension since 1988, is the federal president of the Ex-Prisoners of War Association of Australia.

And Arthur Rex Crane is a fraud.

''It looks like the past has caught up, doesn't it?'' he said when the Herald confronted him this week.

For more than 20 years, Crane lived as a man who had survived a horrific wartime ordeal. To his wife and children, to his friends, to the hundreds of members of the association he led, Rex Crane was a hero. But the reality is not one word of his story is true.

His family had been living in Malaya since 1938, he had told them, where his father William was working at the Raub Australia goldmine. After the Japanese landed in Singapore in December 1941, Crane had maintained that his father took his mother, Florence, and his sister Delsa, back to Prospect in Adelaide.

But 15-year-old Rex and his 19-year-old brother Raymond, he swore, were abandoned in Malaya in the face of an enemy invasion. Forced to enlist in a volunteer militia, Crane claimed he later joined a guerilla, behind-enemy-lines unit run by British intelligence. Raymond survived the war only to die in 2007, he said.

Captured by Japanese soldiers, incarcerated in Outram Road Jail, Crane described being later sent to the Burma-Thai railway where more than 2600 Australians perished. In these years, he had told his friends, he had survived unspeakable things. The soles of his feet were hammered, and he got the dreaded ''rice treatment'', his stomach pumped full of uncooked rice and water and stomped on by guards. Worst of all was the day he was crucified, one of his hands nailed to a tree, and his head smashed in by a soldier wielding a baseball bat.

But there were gaping holes in his tale. Electoral rolls put his family in Prospect, Adelaide, from the late 1930s, right through the war. His brother, Raymond, was alive and well, living in Utah. And state records placed Rex Crane at Adelaide High until well into 1941.

''It is me living a lie, isn't it?,'' he sighed down the phone. ''Oh shit.

''I am going to have to resign from everything. And then I'm buggered if I know what's going to happen from now on. I can see me doing 15 to 20 years here.''

Liz Heagney, official researcher for the Australian ex-POW Memorial in Victoria, said she felt ''absolute and utter disgust'' for Crane. ''He has desecrated the memory of all of those guys that were heroes,'' she said.

It was the day after bushfires ravaged Victoria. Lynette Silver, military historian and author, took her seat at an official service at Ballarat's prisoner-of-war memorial. She sat two seats from the Minister for Veterans Affairs, Alan Griffin.

Silver had yet to meet the new president of the ex-POW association. But when Crane was introduced as one of Australia's youngest POWs, who had not only fought in a secret ''stay-behind'' party in Malaya but had also been imprisoned in Outram Road, Silver's blood ran cold. For years, she had taken a particular interest in these guerilla units that operated behind Japanese lines, and ''I knew the names of all involved''.

''We were asked to believe that someone aged 15 was with the 'stay behind' people. But I knew that no Australians were put in with 'stay behinds','' she said.

Silver had experience in exposing military frauds. In 2004, she discovered Marcel Caux was not the World War I hero Australia believed him to be but was, in fact, Harold Katte, a deserter. Listening to Crane that Sunday, Silver realised the man was lying.

''I also knew that he definitely could not have been in Outram Road Jail. We have got the complete list of people that went into that jail … I knew that Rex Crane was definitely not on the list.''

She enlisted two friends, Di Elliott and Jenny Sandercock. Elliott's father had been a POW on the Burma-Thai railway and Sandercock's father-in-law had died at the infamous Sandakan POW camp. It was their efforts since that Sunday that brought Crane undone.

On Wednesday, the Herald telephoned him to seek an explanation. There was none.

''I suppose it was just a sort of fantasy,'' Crane eventually said.

Since 1988, he has been getting a pension reserved for totally or permanently incapacitated soldiers. He has received at least $380,000 and a bonus $25,000 ex-gratia payment made to ex-POWs, as well as a Gold Card which covers all medical expenses.

''It got to the stage where people push you,'' Crane said. ''You don't have a pension?'' others asked him. ''They knew people in Veterans Affairs and they asked me to go in. And I could not go in there and say this is all bullshit. So I went all the way with it.''

Silver is dubious. Had he said only that he was a prisoner in Changi, or on the Burma-Thai railway, others, including the Department of Veterans Affairs, could have easily cross-checked his name against the public record. ''That story has been concocted very, very cleverly. He has chosen the most obscure background for himself, which a normal person could not trace, and which most people would not question,'' she said.

Crane admitted to the Herald this week that he had copies of several famous books on prisoners of war in Malaya. He had read, for instance, the John McGregor book about the horrors of Outram Road Jail, Blood on the Rising Sun. He also had a copy of The Jungle is Neutral, by Freddie Spencer Chapman, which detailed the adventures of one of these ''stay-behind'' parties.

''I put up a scheme,'' Chapman wrote, ''the substance of which was that a chain of small self-contained European parties should be installed in the jungle at strategic points.''

Crane had claimed he was one of these men and that he was attached to Spencer's forces before being captured and sent to Outram Road Jail in May 1942.

It was a claim that would have required expertise to disprove. Chapman names many men in his book, including all those who were members of his personal party. But official lists are difficult to find because these parties operated in secret.

Silver, Elliott and Sandercock trawled through service records. They read through the infamous ''Pudu Roll'', a list of captured soldiers typed onto toilet paper in 1942 by an Australian officer in Kuala Lumpur's Pudu jail. In Hobart, they found a list of every Australian who had served with the volunteer forces in Malaya and returned home. They checked the list of Outram Road Jail inmates at an archive in Canberra. Crane's name was conspicuously absent from all of them.

Crane might have been aware of the story of ''Ringer'' Edwards. The Fremantle-born soldier and two others were sentenced to death on the Burma-Thai railway. In Prisoners of the Japanese, James Bourke writes: ''Bound at the wrists with fencing wire, the men were suspended from a tree and beaten with a baseball bat. When Edwards managed to free his right hand, his punishment was continued with the fencing wire driven through his palms. Incredibly, [he] somehow survived.''

Crane had told his mates an almost identical story - he has a damaged eye and a scar in the palm of one hand. Crane told the Herald this week: ''I did have an injury to the palm. A nail had gone through the hand - but not as a POW.''

The injuries probably occurred some time after 1978, because for the 15 years before then, Crane ran the Globe Hotel at Yongala, a tiny town on the edge of the South Australian scrub. One of the Globe's regulars, Bob Miller, remembers Crane well and says he never saw a scar on the publican's hand as he passed him his beer.

''He didn't talk about the war at all,'' Miller said.

There were two ''Eureka'' moments for the three women as they continued their investigation. The first came on March 8 when Silver picked up the telephone and dialled a number in Utah.

Knowing that Crane's brother Raymond had settled in Calgary, she had previously made cold calls to entries in the Calgary white pages asking about Raymond Crane. One of the voices at the end of the line said: ''Yes, that's my father.'' Silver recalls: ''He said, 'ask him yourself. He lives in Salt Lake City'.''

This was Crane's dead brother. Instead of just the absence of records, here, suddenly, was proof that Crane had been lying.

When Silver called Raymond Crane at his home, the 87-year-old was happy to talk about his family in Australia, even when Silver brought up the war years.

''The entire family lived at 53 Gordon Street, Prospect, for the whole of the war,'' her notes record. ''[The] younger brothers Rex and Gary were at school, far too young to enlist.''

But only a few weeks ago Sandercock found the smoking gun - Crane's Adelaide High School report card from 1941, the year he was meant to be living in Malaya, abandoned by his parents and forced to enlist.

In fact, Crane's real story is far more pedestrian.

Born into an observant Mormon family, Crane grew up with his two brothers, both adopted, and his sister. He attended Nailsworth Central School before moving to Adelaide High between 1939 and 1941. His school records show he was interested in becoming a doctor or an industrial chemist. But after completing just one term that year, Crane told the Herald he left to pursue work. ''I went into boilermaking,'' he said. ''I worked in town [in Adelaide]. I was doing an apprenticeship.''

And what did you do in the years between leaving school and buying the Globe Hotel? ''I did all sorts of things.''

Pressed about why he had chosen to live such a giant lie, he said: ''It might sound naive but I always wished I had been able to get into the army and that I could join … I tried to join as a youngster. I tried to join the navy. Half a dozen of us, we rode our bikes down to the navy depot and we were turned away, and they said, 'get back to work, and [they] kicked our arses and [they said] don't be stupid'.

''That was the start of it. I would have been 15.''

Later, Crane expanded a little. ''When this all started, I went along to a POW Singapore day that was advertised … and they invited me in for afternoon tea, which I did. I suppose I thought this would be quite good.''

Cyril Gilbert, when he heard the news, was bewildered.

''He would not speak about the war very much. I knew he was in Outram Road Jail and that he got the rice treatment and all that business … And that the only thing that saved him was his name [because the crane] was a sacred bird for the Japanese … I'm not angry. I'm astonished.''

Gilbert is the real thing. Earlier, his voice had choked on the telephone as he remembered the war. ''I get very emotional when I think of my mates. There is not one of my close mates I enlisted with alive today. The Japanese were not human. Animals would not do what they did.''

After confessing to the Herald, then a few hours later to his wife, Crane did the same at the Department of Veterans Affairs. He expects to lose his house. He may also face prosecution.

''I have always just been hoping that I would peg out and that would be it, and no one would know the difference.''
« Last Edit: Saturday03October2009 by Spartakus » Logged

dodger39
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« Reply #302 on: Friday02October2009 »

Thanks Samsung. Got there with the cached link. Will wait and see what transpires  with the latest entry on there prior to me putting my 2 bobs worth there.
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Ethelred
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« Reply #301 on: Friday02October2009 »

dodger this is the url http://users.bigpond.net.au/anva/ however it is not working. Maybe the heat is getting too much and they have deleted the website or maybe they are having tech probs.

PS  this is the cached link

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:GeRenOEVN7MJ:users.bigpond.net.au/anva/+anva&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

GUESTBOOK   http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=anva1&i=1&a=view
« Last Edit: Friday02October2009 by Samsung » Logged
dodger39
Guest
« Reply #300 on: Friday02October2009 »

Tried getting on their site yesterday a few times and also today, but keep getting 404 error. Maybe I'm using the wrong url.

Could you put the url you are using here please.
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phillip
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« Reply #299 on: Friday02October2009 »

I have checked the ANVA site this morning, at 7.20am.

There is a post there, quite mystifying, it is dated and timed as 2nd October 2009 at 8.56am - yet I read it at 7.20am 2nd October - something wrong with their clock?

It is from somebody named Bob Munroe, dont know if he is a AVM contributor, but the spirit of his post is certainly in the same vein as mine, he advises people to keep clear of the madgalahs, and wonder why the ANVA would allow posts by the madgalah idiots to stay on their site.
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phillip
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« Reply #298 on: Thursday01October2009 »

I served at Maralinga in the late 50s.  In the late 80s I joined an association named the Atomic Ex servicemans Associaiton, paid my membership, never heard another thing from them, and theiir webstie, when I tried to find it no longer existed.  Recently I was told of another association for nuclear veterans, the Australian Nuclear Veterans Association (the ANVA) and found their website.  The first thing I noticed on their site was that the latest newsletter was dated 2005, and on their guestbook there were many question being asked by veterans and family members of some veterans who had died of various cancers.  None of the questions were answered, and the newsletter was so far out of date it was a waste of time reading it.  They have a link to the nominal roll of veterans who served at Maralinga, but when you select that site there is no nominal roll.  I asked who the committee were, as the list of committee members seems to be some years old, they gave me no answer, but I did get a phone call from a bloke in Brisbane who spent about 45 minutes denigrating the other two associations, and telling me all about his experiences as a bank manager, that was really interesting to me, I really needed to know that.

I have sent this association so many emails with questions asking when are their elections, do they get funds from the govt under the BEST plan, and many other questions, all that go unanswered.  I then post the same questions on their site in the guestbook, and my questions are removed within 24 hours, but they are there long enough for others to have seen my email address and contact me with the advice they have been asking the same questions, and have given up because they never get answers either, and most of them had paid their membership, never heard another thing after they paid their money, and have never been advised of any elections for committee members.  It appears the "Founder and President" exists to sell commemorative (tin) medals, sell a CD with a song about nuclear veterans and collect membership fees, if they do anything else, then I cant find out what it is.  Last Sunday night I noticed the posting by Jim Wilshire of the madgalahs group and I made a posting advising people who visited the site to beware of the madgalahs, and referred them to the AVM site to read about the madgalahs - my posting was removed by the next morning, but the post by Jim Wilshire is still there - does this tell me that the ANVA supports the madgalahs - I think so.  I did not put me email on this most recent posting on their site, because I did not want to be harrassed by the mad galahs as I believe so many others have been before me.  If you are a nuclear veteran, or just somebody who is anti the mad galahs, post a message on their site warning people about the galah idiots, but check the next day, if you post has been removed as mine was, then it would be a fair bet another madgalah sympathiser has been outed.  Each of the three associations issues and sells for about $80 a commemorative (tin) medal, each of them is different, the colours of the ribbon are different, so maybe some wannabe on this or the ANZMI would like to contribute to them and thus gain another three medals to wear when they lead the march on Anzac Day, they could always tell people they are bravery awards.
« Last Edit: Thursday01October2009 by Spartakus » Logged
Nuidat68
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« Reply #297 on: Thursday01October2009 »

  I Rekon a bit of sea weed or woopy weed got this fella.
 These should be easy for the tribunial to figure out they are bloody laughable. But holding up the system for genuine combat veterans in NOT funny at all. Embarrassed Angry
These wankers should go to their back pools & play Rubber duckies all they want.
Nui Dat
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CD
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« Reply #296 on: Wednesday30September2009 »

It sounds like he wants to be another 'China Hammal' wannabe to me. The 'Swan' never dropped anchor on both of her 'visits' so these blokes would have had to be super "Thorpedoes".
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Fergus
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« Reply #295 on: Wednesday30September2009 »

Ex sailor Trevor Desmond McKerlie is a proven liar and a cheat.

Here is an example of a conspiracy between a group of sailors to defraud the commonwealth.  It is rather long winded, but worth reading.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/aat/2009/718.html

You have just read a report of ex sailors conspiring to tell lies to support an event that never happened, to compensate an illness that never was, and to top it all off, accuse their ship's officers of lying and forging the ship's log and Reports of Proceedings.

Their names should be noted by decent veterans. The Australian Federal Police should charge all of them with perjury.

You can read the names, of those who have lied for Trevor Desmond McKerlie. They all served on HMAS Swan in 1971.

Ex sailors keep trying it on, and every time they are caught makes it harder for the next bloke who may be in genuine need.

Aye

Fergus
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Savage1
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« Reply #294 on: Sunday20September2009 »

From what I have just read confirms my opinion as to why I will never have any thing to do with the RSL.  May they pass away slowly in the sunset.
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Zion
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« Reply #293 on: Sunday20September2009 »

You will find attached the Minutes of the RSL Qld State Board meeting for August 2009.


Most Qld RSL members would never have seen these minutes, or any other minutes from the old State Council meetings. It is understood the State Council may be now known as the Board. This Council/Board meets in Brisbane and usually consists of all the District Presidents and others. Most Qld RSL members wouldn't have any idea about the activities and deliberations of the Board, and many would not know it exists, even though it is the critical and most influential group in the Qld RSL regarding the implementation of day to day administration and policies of the RSL.

The Qld RSL continues to occupy itself with what most would consider mundane matters, considering the many Constitutional, structural and image problems the RSL faces. Of note for many years has been the secrecy of just what decisions are made at the leadership levels of the RSL and how these decisions are arrived at. The furphy that the RSL is a grassroots driven organisation is just that, a very big furphy. The RSL will trot out all types of information to prove its assertion that the grassroots have the ultimate power in the RSL but this is effectively untrue and in the main, apart from passing minutes at sub branches, the ordinary members have little knowledge of what is happening in their ESO and how decisions and policies are arrived at.

One of the main morale and image problems facing the RSL is lack of communication. We acknowledge the great improvement in the Qld State website with the inclusion of much information. However more that just having a website needs to be done to keep as many members as possile fully informed. In fairness this glitch in communications rests not just with the HQ in Brisbane but is endemic thoughout Districts and sub branches. Ordinary members too must make it their business to try to uncover what is transpiring in their ESO. Communication is the life blood of any organization.

When you read the minutes of the August board Meeting you will clearly see for yourself there is a lack of detail. Even though these minutes may be distributed to Districts and sub branches they tell members nothing about the detail of matters raised.

All in all the Qld RSL is driven by a small group of men and women who cannot grasp the importance of modernising the RSL, rewriting its Constitution and rules and streamlinging its structures.

There is no doubt the RSL is a dying organization and it will be effectively dead within 10 years unless change is made. One of the ways the leadership right across the country uses to prop up membership and provide Executives is to widely encourage membership from the 1950 era National Service scheme and from the Army Reserves [the old CMF]. The truth is these people are quickly taking over the leadership of the RSL in many levels and this will mean further disaster for the RSL.Simply put 50's era Nashos and Reserve members do not understand professional Soldiering, do not understand Regimental life, do not usually have the experience of War Service and they should be slotted into positions where their limited knowledge of professional full time Military service is acknowledged.

There are horses for courses.

When we talk of Soldiering and Regimental life we include all three Services, RAN, Army and RAAF.

If you open the attachment you will read these latest Qld Board minutes . A read of these minutes will show you that much needs to be addressed which is not being addressed.

Do we think our information and opinion will change the RSL. The short answer is--NO. The RSL is an old boys club which will probably trundle on until its eventual demise.

For those from other ESOs reading this we suggest you don't become smug. All the major ESOs have similar problems.

We have produced this covering opinion and information quickly just to get the minutes out to you. For those out there who want to nit pick, who want to be pedantic and who constantly sit on the sidelines waiting for any opportunity to show off their detailed knowledge----don't bother making any comment. We are interested in the broad issue, the overall picture and we give no truck to silly, immature point scoring.

OPEN THE ATTACHMENT TO READ THE MINUTES.

« Last Edit: Sunday20September2009 by Cassius » Logged

Ethelred
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« Reply #292 on: Friday18September2009 »

I wonder why it is that the WA TPI Association is buying into the entitlements of disabled Veterans OTHER than TPIs?

As all of you have seen this Association has used arguments based on the General Rate up to 100% to back up it's argument for an increase to the TPI ---Special Rate---pension.

I'm not interested in any arguments about whether or not the TPI is a pension or compensation payment. That is a periphal matter which was discussed over and over many years ago.

The TPI Associations and TPI Federation have one charter and that is to look after the interests of TPIs as far as I understand.
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bralig
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« Reply #291 on: Thursday17September2009 »

Spartakus, this could be reported at SCAMwatch: http://www.scamwatch.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/694076. See Report a scam under Quick Links at top right of web page.
« Last Edit: Sunday01November2009 by Brat » Logged
Zion
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« Reply #290 on: Thursday17September2009 »

Hello Readers,

Somebody is sending fraudulent emails out and as usual they are trying to con money from, in this case, Australian Veterans. This person/s alleges they are stranded in Africa and that they are a past member/s of HQ 1 ATF, Vietnam. They are not.

HQ 1 ATF Association has been notified and they are taking the approprite action.

The purpose of this posting is to notify YOU. Don't fall for any scam information which relates to the below. Hang onto your dough and credibility.

We have received the following emails.

Don't get caught, don't feel sorry for anybody who cries poor over the internet and zip up your wallet and give only to reputable organisations and your known mates who may need help.

Read on.

From: xxxxxx
To: AVM
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 10:14 PM
Subject: I have a new Yahoo! Mail address


Hello again,
You will recall that I sent you an email which allegedly came from a "Rod Barrett", who claimed to have lost his passport, money, clothes and whatever in some Nigerian jail. "Rod Barrett" wanted someone in the 1st Australian Task Force Association (?) to send him $3000 so he could get home to Australia. You said it sounded like a typical Nigerian scam.

Well, apparently from the email below, "Rod Barrett" has escaped from Nigeria and has altered his yahoo email address to hq1atfassocwa@yahoo.com - a very slight change from the previous address of Phillip Moscatt's hq1atfassoc@yahoo.com - indicating that he is now possibly located in Western Australia, which may or may not be true.

The plot thickens! I have no idea what is going on - which is not all that unusual - but I wonder if there really is a HQ 1 ATF Association of Western Australia, and I wonder what scam "Rod Barrett" is about to try out this time around.I have no idea who Phillip Moscatt represents, nor who the fake "Rod Barrett" really is either.

Maybe ANZMI should be advised?
Best regards,
xxxxxx

----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Barrett
To: xxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: I have a new Yahoo! Mail address

New E-mail Address: hq1atfassocwa@yahoo.com

Hello,

I have switched my e-mail address from hq1atfassoc@yahoo.com to hq1atfassocwa@yahoo.com. NOTE THE:- (wa) on the end of the NEW ADDRESS Please be sure to update your address book and send messages to my new Yahoo! Mail address from now on.

Many thanks

Regards

Rod Barrett
hq1atfassocwa@yahoo.com


Note: This is a service message sent to you by TrueSwitch on behalf of Rod Barrett .

THE FOLLOWING EMAIL HAS BEEN SENT TO THE GENUINE ROD BARRETT WHO IS A GENUINE AUSTRALIAN VETERAN. SOMEBODY IS USING HIS NAME, WITHOUT HIS PERMISSION, TO ELICIT MONEY FROM YOU.

From: xxxxxxx
To: rsbarrett 
Cc: AVM
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: scam emails


Hi Rod,
Thanks for your email. Yes, I saw your earlier email some months ago saying that you were not the "Rod Barrett" who claimed to be locked up in a Nigerian jail, and I'm glad to see that you are safe and sound in God's Own Country - Western Australia. [Although I am a Croweater, I had two postings to 22 Const Sqn at Karrakatta many years ago, and two of my kids were born in Perth, so I have many happy memories of WA.]

What puzzled me was that the original scam email and the recent repeat apparently came via Phil Moscatt's HQ 1ATF email address list. I don't know enough about how these things work, but it seemed to me that someone had copied Phil's email address list to send out the scam emails, which suggested to me that someone in Australia was running the scam. Anyway, I just hope whoever it is gets caught.

Maybe I can give you a phone call when I am at the XXXX Club rally at Albany in March 2010. I hope to visit XXXXX at Bunbury after the Rally (he was my 2ic at one time in Vietnam), and I have a couple of mates to look up in and around Perth - XXXXX ex-AATTV being one.

I'll get back in touch with AVM if I get anymore scam emails re "Rod Barrett" (the fake one!) being locked up in Nigeria or wherever, but I'm buggered if I'm going to send him any money! I'll buy you a beer in Perth or wherever you are when I see you.

Until then ,best wishes,
XXXXX

P.S. You possibly knew me as "XXXX" XXXX - which was an Army nickname I had for about 40 years.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Barrett
To: XXXXX
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: scam emails


Hi XXXX just a quick note to let you know that the emails going around re me, wanting money as I am stuck in Africa/London or where ever, are scams as you are aware. I have had a lot of calls/emails on this and trust that others just delete without replying.

If people are silly enough to send money , have them send it to my home address, it will come in handy I'm sure.

I have changed our Yahoo email address and closed the original. It is now hq1atfassocwa@yahoo.com.au

Cheers
Rod Barrett
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« Reply #289 on: Wednesday16September2009 »

Thanks for that, cavman. This matter is often discussed among ex-service men and women. One perceived problem is that even DVA's published material is pretty vague and confusing, as the Special Rate Disability Pension is sometimes listed under Compensation payments or referred to as compensation. For example, (1) the overview on Factsheet DP01 Overview of Disability Pensions and Allowances: http://factsheets.dva.gov.au/factsheets/documents/DP01%20Overview%20of%20Disability%20Pensions%20and%20Allowances.pdf states that 'Disability pension is paid to compensate veterans....' and (2) the Special Rate Disability Pension Safety Net Payment is listed in Factsheet MRC04 Compensation Payment Rates: http://factsheets.dva.gov.au/factsheets/documents/MRC04%20Compensation%20Payment%20Rates.pdf.

Until this latest effort to differentiate the payment types for indexation purposes, I didn't see that the payment label mattered. Evidently it does.

Notice in the attached DVA Information Kit that all of the disability pensions fall under the heading Compensation Pensions, making it a simple matter to apply either label – ‘compensation’ or ‘pension’ – as the situation demands. The info kit appears to state that these payments, including the Intermediate and Special Rates, are indexed by the greater of CPI or MTAWE. However, DVA Factsheets IS159 and DP28 imply that MTAWE is not applied outright to the Intermediate and Special Rates. I understand that a component of these higher rates, equal to 100% of the General Rate, is subjected to the MTAWE comparison.

Of course, all of this changes on 20 September 2009. I wonder whether the new Pensioner and Beneficiary Living Cost Index (PBLCI) will be applied to a component of the Intermediate and Special Rates as MTAWE has been.

* Veterans_Affairs_KitMarch09.pdf (359.52 KB - downloaded 463 times.)
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« Reply #288 on: Wednesday16September2009 »

I cannot argue with Rick Ryan’s assessment of the current Minister for Veteran’s Affairs on another thread.  From what I have heard and read, the Minister is, by and large, better than others who held that portfolio and I speak about ministers from both sides of politics.  I also speak as an Advocate of nearly 24 years experience with a 100% success rate.  I have also  undertaken studies in Veterans Law at Southern Cross Uni, Vets Law workshops run by Bruce Topperwein (VRB, 2004) and during my civvy career, in which I undertook  professional development courses in Admin Law and an AAT Advocate's Course (TIP 4) in 1996.

I owe no allegiance to any political party or to any ESO.  Those that know me from my previous RAAC service, including my 2 tours with 3 Cav, know me well and what I do.

However, I do take strong issue with Rick's following comment: “One thing I believe is important to note is that the TPI Special Rate is a compensation payment and NOT a pension.”  This remark cannot  pass without comment.  The first para of the second Schedule to the Australian Soldiers’ Repatriation Act 1920, stated:

"The Special Rate of Pension may be granted to soldiers who have been blinded as the result of War service, and to members who are totally and permanently incapacitated (i.e. incapacitated for life to such an extent as to be precluded from earning other than a negligible percentage of a living wage)". (VERBOSITY (2003), SPECIAL RATE OF PENSION at 7).  Note the use of the word “pension.”

The VEA 1986 (C’th) defines “Disability Pension” as  “a pension under part II or IV (other than a pension that is payable under section 30 to a dependent of a deceased veteran)” (vide s 5Q(1).  (See also Creyke & Sutherland “Veterans’ Entitlements Law” (2000) at 175-177).

TPI pensions come under the ambit of part II (s24) of the Act.  That section is quite rightly and correctly  titled “ Special Rate of Pension.”  Read that title carefully. It addresses the eligibility for payment of a pension NOT compo.  The Minister is I fear, being disingenuous in using the term “compensation.”  I also suspect he is being blindsided by the suits in DVA – most notably within the Repatriation Commission.  This use of civvified terms is just an extension of all attempts by the previous Govt and the Govt of the day to water down the effects of service on ADF personnel such as substituting “injured” or “hurt” for “wounded in action.”  It helps the suits to absolve themselves of any duty of care post-wounding, and is a very serious attempt to reduce the Commonwealth’s liability and to de minimis the service and sacrifices of ADF personnel. So too is the use of “compensation” in lieu of “pension.”  Do NOT be sucked in by that.  I urge all members to keep on top of this.

Topperwein (2003), describes the application of General Rate (GR) disability pensions as being converted via GARP to “a percentage of the general rate of pension” (Topic 9 Pension Assessment), Veterans’ Law 1 Southern Cross University, at 9.3).  He further addresses the Special Rate of Pension at Topic 11.  Nowhere in the readings or subject matter is the term “compensation” used in relation to veterans’ entitlements.  Nowhere in any High Court decisions has the term “pension” been disturbed by the Court in its application to any veterans’ entitlements matters before it.


Topperwein describes 4 categories of pension:

•   General rate of pension 10% to 100%
•   EDA
•   Intermediate rate; and
•   Special rate.

He describes all of them as pensions and never once refers to them as compensation payments (Topic 3 at 3.3).

In essence, there is a huge difference in both terms.  To allow the incremental  word minimisation-creep that is currently being practised by this or any Government in respect of veterans' or War Widows' entitlements , is to endanger all that we have fought hard to achieve since 1916.

It is in incumbent on us all, to ensure we never ever get called compo recipients  and fight for veterans to retain their status as recipients of a disability pension - regardless of category for services rendered to Australia.  As someone wrote recently on another website – we are the only people who write a cheque to the Australian people, “payable in the amount up to and including my life.”
« Last Edit: Wednesday16September2009 by cavman » Logged
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« Reply #287 on: Wednesday16September2009 »

Have been sent this e-mail traffic through friend.  I believe the posting I put out on loaded question and ESO vilification has come to pass

Brian McKenzie, who I understand has put out an e-mail stating his opinion about himself and his heroic efforts of the past, does not speak for the VVAA in any official capacity nor does his control of the puppet strings have much affect except with the usual suspect.  Brian McKenzie, Terry Westerway, Harry Kirkman and Frank O'Neil are entitled to their opinions, the question that should be asked is who listens to them, and if you do ring VVCS they will assist with your mental disorder.

From: disabledveteran
To: VVAA B McK
Cc: Baldwin, Bob (MP) ; DVA Shadow Minister ; DVA Minister ; DVA Sec. Ian Campbell ;
president@peacekeepers.asn.au ; secretary@peacekeepers.asn.au ; VVAA Nat. Sec. ; VVAA Nat Pres
Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 10:15 AM
Subject: ESO POLICY ON ADF SUPPERANNUATION AND VETERAN DISABLED PENSIONS


Dear Brian
 
Thank you for responding on behalf of the VVAA to the survey on your ESOs policy pertaining VDPs and ADF Superannuation. I sent you four private requests for an response from your VVAA prior to the collating and distribution of the survey material. Only after the survey results were distributed do you choose to respond not to me the sender but as
a distribution to the WWW. I trust you will not be upset if I correspond likewise. Your respond attempting to belittle the sender in a schoolyard bully manner but  fails to answer either of the questions. Your manner Mr McKenzie is very amusing and appeals to the facile but fails to advances the case for an equitable or just resolution to the two most pertinent matters in the ADF and Veteran communities today.
 
Contrary to your assertion the 12 out of 14 ESOs who did respond had qualifying notes and these were appended in the resulting distribution. Only your VVAA and the APPAV failed to respond.
The Questions and ESO qualification notes are here again enclosed for your consideration.
 
I ask that rather than attacking the questioner you attack the question.
 
Yours.. F J O'Neill...16.09.09
 
From: Peter Clayton
To: 'Allen Petersen'
Sent: Tuesday, 15 September 2009 6:16 PM
Subject: Re ESO POLICY ON ADF SUPERANNUATION AND VETERAN DISABLED PENSIONS A


What’s Brian McKenzie waffling on about this time, just because they do things differently why attack them.

What was the poor behaviour between 2000 and 2004, was that Aggie and co.

 

Snoopy

 
From: Barry Corse
To: 'Terry Westerway'
Cc: 'Jim Wiltshire' ; 'Bernie McGurgan' ; 'Allen Petersen' ; 'frank'
Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 8:35 AM
Subject: Re ESO POLICY ON ADF SUPPERANNUATION AND VETERAN DISABLED PENSIONS A


EXCELLENT Call and response to a most astonishing ANZAC community deliberate patronization.

In this corner of the eso elitism we have formal confirmation that the self appointed “containers” of the ANZAC mushroom farm are very much alive and “patronizing” on a scale that would do credit to the Melbourne Club and their annex the rsl and ADF high command.

"don't you worry your little selves about it, have a Bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down and let me handle it".
"If I think you need to know something, I will tell you what I think you need to know".
"If you don't hear anything, obviously you do not need to know".
If I had treated my combat diggers in this manner I would have expected their contempt and my accidental execution in battle vide rule .303

 
From: Terry Westerway
To: Harry Kirkman ; Allen Petersen
Cc: Frank "Jock" O'Neill ; oldfaithful@netspace.net.au
Sent: Wednesday, 16 September 2009 6:36 AM
Subject: Re ESO POLICY ON ADF SUPERANNUATION AND VETERAN DISABLED PENSIONS A


I must express my great disappointment in the response from Brian McKenzie!!
 
It is very much the attitude of the eletist cognoscenti of whom I have written previously. Essentially,
"don't you worry your little selves about it, have a Bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down and let me handle it".
"If I think you need to know something, I will tell you what I think you need to know".
"If you don't hear anything, obviously you do not need to know".
Frank O'Neill's questions are a quite reasonable attempt to find out what transpired, at least about 2 important issues that should concern every veteran and ex-serviceman, at the "Round Table Discussion Group" (which I presume was the meeting convened by Alan Griffin recently). To the best of my knowledge, the general community has not heard anything of what transpired at the "round table" - nor any significant statement from many ESOs in regard to their stance/position on at least the two subjects mentioned.
 
As a "grassroots" member of the VVAA (of which Brian McKenzie is a senior office holder), I must express my very great dissatisfaction that the VVAA did not even bother with any response. To me, that silence smacks of "who are you to ask us questions?" and/or "you 'lesser beings' do not have a right to know such things".
 
Brian McKenzie makes a number of assumptions about the motives of Frank O'Neill - that are not contained in his email - and a number of assertions that are not warranted by the content of the email. Brian, please tell me:-
 
1. Upon what grounds do you assume that Frank O'Neill is "a member of a small group appointed to agitate in                 support of the WA TPI Association to put pressure on the government"? Or that "he is working in concert with John Ryan"?
 
2. Why are Frank's quite reasonable questions necessarily "a rerun of the poor behaviour seen from late 2000 till 2004
where we witnessed some really nasty stuff (death threats) coming from the dark side of the veteran community"?
 
3. Why is public commentary about important issues and asking questions about important issues necessarily
"clambering for attention, seeking the Minister ear, threatening those who fail to conform to a particular philosophy
about the best way forward"?
 
4. Upon what evidence do you contend that Frank O'Neill's questions and comments appear "to be gathering
 information to attempt to shame other ESO’s into submission"?
 
Brian, the above are reasonable and polite questions and merit a reasoned and polite response. And as you are a senior member of the VVAA, perhaps I, as a member of the same VVAA might also have the VVAA response to Frank O'Neill's questions?
 
I await your reply.
 
Terry Westerway
 
From: Brian McKenzie
To: 'Allen Petersen'
Sent: Tuesday, 15 September 2009 2:38 PM
Subject: RE ESO POLICY ON ADF SUPERANNUATION AND VETERAN DISABLED PENSIONS A


This bloke probably has the best of intentions and quite obviously a member of a small group appointed to agitate in support of the WA TPI Association to put pressure on the government. It appears he is working in concert with John Ryan and others who have sought to express their views by email or letter about the performance of the Minister. If he persists he going to get a lot of people off side and go down the gurgler in the credibility stakes.

 

I would suggest he is preaching to the converted anyway.

 

We don’t need a rerun of the poor behaviour seen from late 2000 till 2004 where we witnessed some really nasty stuff (death threats) coming from the dark side of the veteran community, clambering for attention, seeking the Minister ear, threatening those who fail to conform to a particular philosophy about the best way forward. If that is the case then it will be a very long time before we are taken seriously and the important issues addressed.

 

He appears to be gathering information to attempt to shame other ESO’s into submission but his best approach would be to have a cup of tea, and a good lie down, and leave it those capable of getting a positive result with a well planned strategy. The questionnaire itself is biased toward getting the result the agitator desires (without any qualification by ESO’s) and therefore the result useless.

 

Just my thoughts

Regards, Brian

 

Brian  McKenzie

 

T:  03 62451717

M: 0439 030 429

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« Reply #286 on: Tuesday15September2009 »

Need to qualify one positin that is held by VVAA they have seen the Mathews report on Superannuation and are in agreement with most reputable ESOs that indexation os DFRB/BFRDB and Military Super should be brought into line.  The VVAA policy on this matter is total support of DFWA paper and submission on this issue.
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« Reply #285 on: Tuesday15September2009 »

Recieved this from in VVAA.  My understanding is VVAA do see a parity issue in disability pension but that is a seperate issue to Hamer Report and the Stimulus package which was made to help the most financiiallly disadvantaged in our community.  I would suggest Brian McKenzie for once has got the argument right.

Talk about loaded questions.  No wonder VVAA has no wish to participate.

Distribution,

                All State Presidents

                NSW Sec for Exec and all Sub-Branches

 

The questionnaire (below) is pretty typical of those developed by those with a bias towards a particular outcome.  It predicates the questions with absolute statements which indicate clearly the sort of outcome that is being sought.  The questions are closed, not open.  There is no room for discussion, amplification or qualification. 

 

The threat - I originally wrote “implied threat”, but I realise now that the threat is real and blatant - is that the ESO will be held to ridicule if its responses do not conform in all ways to the expected outcome. 

 

Obviously some ESOs have qualified their responses so  those responses are marked with a red question mark to highlight them as non-conforming and because the answers are not published, the reasons for the variation remain unknown. 

 

For those who wish to read more about bias in questionnaires see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1323316.  Wikipedia has a small article as well.

 

ESO POLICY ON ADF SUPERANNUATION AND VETERAN DISABLED PENSIONS

 

The National Secretaries of the fourteen Ex Service Organisations that make up the "Round Table Discussion Group" with the principal officials of the Department of Veteran Affairs were each asked to voluntary respond to questions on their organisations policy on the issues of "ADF Superannuation" and "Veteran Disabled Pensions". Some organisations already have their policies in the public forum.

The request was circulated on three occasions. Ten of the fourteen ESOs chose to responded.

___________________________________

 

This is the circular sent to the ESOs

ESO members will experience financial loss equity and parity within the community if the Government proceeds with its current policy towards Veteran Disability Pensions and ADF Superannuation's.

Veterans Disability Pension recipients are being denied any increase while other DVA and Age pensions have received increases amounting to 11.4% in the 2009 Budget Bill. This is a loss of financial  parity and equity for many of your members. There are 130,000 Pension recipients in all the Disability Rates, of which 29,000 are classified Special Rate.

ADF Superannuation recipients are being denied an equitable and parity maintaining increase in their payments by the refusal of  Government to index the ADF Superannuation Funds to the MTAWE index. There are 182,500 Superannuants in three ADF Funds.

All ESOs have members in one or other of these categories and many are in both. To overturn the Governments policy and instate a right thinking policy the ADF and Veteran Community need the support of the ESO leadership. To this end I am contacting the most influential ESOs to enquire to your particular policy on these two pertinent matters. The response of ESOs will be collated, listed and distributed to the ESOs the ADF and Veteran community.

I ask for your help in compiling this list for the benefit of many of your members and those in the greater ADF and Veteran communities in their struggle with Government for a just and fair income.

Q1.Veteran Disability Pensions: The policy of this ESO is to support an equitable and parity maintaining increase to the Veteran Disability Pension.

 Yes we do.                                 No we do not.                      We have no policy.

Q2.ADF Superannuation Funds:  The policy of this ESO is to support  the benchmarking  of ADF Superannuation Funds to the MTAWE or higher index.

Yes we do.                                 No we do not.                       We have no policy.

________________________________

 

 

Your ESOs Response.

 

 

APPVA.                                  No Response .

 

ASASA.                    Q1. yes we do.     Q2. Yes we do.

 

AVADSC.                  Q1. Yes we do.     Q2. Yes we do.

 

DFWA.                                ?                Q2. Yes we do.

 

LegacyCC.                              See attached.

 

TPIFed.                    Q1. Yes we do.     Q2. Yes we do.

 

NAA.                                      See attached.

 

PVA.                         Q1. Yes we do.      Q2. Yes we do.

 

RAAFA.                     Q1. Yes we do.      Q2. Yes we do.

 

RARA.                                 ?                 Q2. Yes we do.

 

R&SL.                                      See attached

 

VVAA.                                      No Response

 

VVFA.                       Q1 Yes we do.    Q2 Yes we do.

 

WWGuildA.                               See attached

 

 

Please read these responses  in conjunction with the ESO replies, attached.

 

F J O'Neill

14.09.09

     

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« Reply #284 on: Monday14September2009 »

More evidence has come to light to show that the WA TPI vote of no confidence in Mr Griffin was ham fisted, inappropriate and at the very least was premature and an ill thought out action.
 
It is a simple truth, that at this stage, Griffin does not deserve what WA TPI have dealt him. Griffin cannot be all things to all men but he is better than most DVA Ministers we have seen for a long time.
 
Radical dills tend to be the noisiest in any organization and by carefully loading motions with emotional clap trap and half truths can usually sway a meeting towards an inappropriate decision.
 
Frank O’Neill the deliverer of the motion has been clearly linked with the WA based mob called the Mad Galahs. This action has Mad Galah fingerprints all over it. The Mad Galahs are the hard core of the wider group who call themselves the ANZAC Alliance. If you look at the address groups of these entities you will notice they are all connected and include Wiltshire, Corse, Briggs, Petersen, and of course O’Neill.
 
Rick Ryan is a well known WA TPI with his hand on the pulse of Veterans matters. He contends that Griffin (so far) is a good Minister and that Veterans like those who voted for the motion are confused. He said:
 
“Therefore, I believe because of what has been going across the internet, that there is still some confusion among veterans as to just what is a pension and what constitutes a compensation payment and under just what mantle, each of them fall"
 
The confusion has been created by O’Neill, the Mad Galahs/ANZAC Alliance and the back room boys of the WA TPI association who have manipulated their constituents for their own purposes. 
 
It is well known that TPIs’ from WA are infuriated that the Federation President was not included on a Ministerial advisory peak body.
 
It seems that Griffin in all of his “Peak advisory groups” reserves the right to select the representatives. We all see that as a sinister way to go about things, but Griffin, above all else is a political animal.
 
We would go as far to say, that the real reason, cooked up by the backroom boys of WA TPI association behind the vote of no confidence relates to Griffin’s non selection of Blue Ryan as part of an advisory group.
 
Griffin has his faults like that pointed out above, however in balance he is a rare politician who has the capacity to talk first hand to his DVA constituents, usually during times that he should be spending with his family.
 
On Balance Griffin is still ahead of the game.
 
Below is the full email recently distributed by Rick Ryan a WA TPI. Note: Don’t confuse Rick Ryan with Blue Ryan the TPI Federations President
 
Aye
 
Fergus
 
 
G’day all,
 
I too emailed Alan Griffin, Minister for Veterans Affairs in relation to the emails from Robyn and Laurie Bodey.  Alan Griffin responded by email to me within 24 hours.  I then responded by email  on Saturday, 13th September and Minister Griffin phoned me tonight, Sunday 14th September 2009.  We had a lengthy conversation not only on the subject of TPI Disability compensation payments, but also on pharmaceutical  costs and indexation of military superannuation (These last two issues are not the subject of this email).
 
I found Alan to be quite open and honest and not only ready to answer my questions but also to explain the government position and in depth the government package to be released on 20th September.  One thing I believe is important to note is that the TPI Special Rate is a compensation payment and NOT a pension.  The Minister is quite strong on this point and I readily agree with this interpretation. This is what I believe we fought for over all those years of argument for the change in indexation arrangements on disability payments.  For those with short memories, Alan Griffin was the one who really led the charge to see that we got what we asked for in relation to indexation arrangements. We may not all have been happy with the amount of catch up payments but we certainly are now a lot better off than what we were when the previous government was in power.
 
As a recipient of the TPI Special Rate, I will be one the few TPIs that will not receive the much lauded pension increase on 20th September because I am not in receipt of a pension payment.  I accept this situation as I also accept that the Government package is aimed at those poorest of the poor pensioners that rely on pension payments to survive.  The fact is that around 80 per cent of TPIs will get an increase in their pensions (not the TPI Special Rate) as will also a large number of other veterans on disability payments that fall into the categories as defined by the current government policy. Remember this is a government ‘one off’ increase that is aimed at the most deserving of pensioners.  Those of us TPIs that miss out do so, not because we are TPIs but because we are not in the pensioner categories as defined by government i.e. due to wealth, assets or whatever we do not qualify for a pension payment e.g Service Pension.
 
That aside, it is also the responsibility of the Minister to ensure that TPI and other disability compensation payments do not fall behind, a point on which the Minister is only too aware.  This is why the indexation arrangements changed ( a battle for which we fought really hard) and Minister Griffin supported.  I believe that we as TPIs should not be trying to align ourselves with pensioners but to fight  hard for our compensation payment increases  as a separate issue.
 
Therefore, I believe because of what has been going across the internet, that there is still some confusion among veterans as to just what is a pension and what constitutes a compensation payment and under just what mantle, each of them fall.  The Minister is in the process of responding to the Robyn and Laurie Bodey’s correspondence and other veteran concerns over this issue. Hopefully it will be in a format that explains things simply. It is also necessary that this information once released be widely disseminated right throughout the veteran community and all the way down to the grass root level.
 
In closing, I express that I am not a member of any political party and those of you that know me, would be aware that I have contacted many of the past Minister’s for Veterans Affairs on a number of issues.  I have found Minister Griffin to be the only Minister that has responded to correspondence both past and present and in a timely manner. He has also taken the time to make contact by phone on occasions to discuss my questions and to give open and what I believe to be honest answers.  That sort of response, I found hard to get out of any past Minister in his portfolio.  I trust that Minister Griffin continues in his position as he is one Minister that we have been very lucky to have on our side.
 
Take care and Persevere,
 
Rick
 
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« Reply #283 on: Sunday13September2009 »

I have been reading this thread with interest.  I for one am quite happy with the Minister.  He, and the government have or are in the process of delivering what they promised during the election.  What I am unhappy about is the manner in which the Special Rate adjustments are calculated.  As such, I have written to my local member.  We as veterans will achieve a lot more if we continue to harrass our local members for what we believe we are entitled.  TPI associations, of which I am a member, do speak on our behalf, but nothing worries a pollie more that seeing their electors taking them to task.
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Ethelred
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« Reply #282 on: Sunday13September2009 »

I quote part of my posting earlier

The following email from Bodey to various addresses shows just whom he communicates with in the mad galahs and in fact his address list reads like a who's who in the mad galahs.

I should have been clearer, and for that I take responsibility. I am NOT claiming all addressees on the Bodey email are mad galahs or mad galah supporters. I am claiming that many of the mad galah protagonists are in his address list. This is fact which can be proven.

Case raises various issues, though I am not sure why he concentrates on Mr Blue Ryan as much as he does for I have only seen Ryan mentioned once in this thread. I have no disagreement with much of the information and opinions Case has raised.

It's well known much good work has been done by many over the years. However for any of these people to be seen to be interacting with the mad galahs will lead to a severe loss of credibility on their part and will weaken their case. This is one of the points Fergus was making.

Additionally it's not what happened at the TPI meeting and who was there which is in debate. What is in debate is the influence the mad galahs have had in the community over the debate about the DVA Ministers competence and honesty and a vote of no confidence. The vile, abusive and threatening language of the mad galahs regarding these matters has been widespread over the internet and this is the influence and momentum which has had the perception at least of supporting the WA TPI Association vote and other actions.

The WA TPI Association would be well advised to make a public statement distancing itself from the actions and behaviour of the mad galahs, and indeed ALL ESOs would be well advised to do the same. For any member of the WA TPI Association to use the mad galah Petersen email list to publish the case of the WA TPI Association or to distribute its information gives the clear perception that there is co-operation between the two, whether in fact there is or not.

Any person or ESO which interacts with the mad galahs on Veteran matters and any individual or ESO which uses the Petersen/Corse/Briggs/Wiltshire mad galah email lists to distribute information will immediately lose credibility and be seen to be part of the mad galah system,regardless of their integrity. The mad galahs have zero credibility in the wider community despite their propaganda and lies and they have caused more disunity and unrest in the community and more loss of general credibility to us all than any other group I can recall.

Let's read what is written and not what we think is written.

PS----to be clear and transparent, I stand against the WA vote. Mainly because I don't believe the Minister is deserving of it, I believe it is poor tactics, and I reckon it is petulant.
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Milt
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« Reply #281 on: Saturday12September2009 »

Well said Case,
all the best
Milt Smiley
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case
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« Reply #280 on: Saturday12September2009 »

If this makes it unabridged, and on line I will be surprised, if it does make it then I will admit it is a fair site.


As ever Ignorance abounds.

Those who were not there are mouthing off about things they know nothing about, creating assumptions which are ridiculous at best and as bad if not worse than some of the mad galahs drivel.

I can see that there are some who have made comments on this list have no idea as to what actually happens within TPI associations or what the federation is.

Some even in complete ignorance say “I’m O”K Allen and I think you are a great bloke” (in other words bugger the rest). Or is this to say that Blue Ryan is not worthy.

How many here are truly aware of what the history is of the fight for full entitlements.

How many are active members of your state Associations.

A precedent was set for a vote of no confidence in a minister for veteran affairs some years ago when the WA TPI Assn Made the motion against one Bruce Scott. It ended up costing him his job and in the process the TPI federation ended up getting rid of its President, Brigadier Alf Garland, for failing to do as the membership asked him to do. Instead he wrote a sycophantic letter to the Toxic dwarf telling him the boys were all happy and there were just a few recalcitrant members in the West.

This lead to blue being elected as President of the federation, taking a positive lead, which eventually gave us what was supposed to be an ironclad guarantee of parity in our compensation.

If any of you doubt any of this, the early parts of the progress it still all on record at the digger forum as a historical file first created by “The Gecko”, who sadly passed away a few years ago, it is all there.

I have been following progress (or lack of it) having been on some half dozen forums over a long period and the ignorance of many who would contribute has never failed to astound me.
Jumping to conclusions akin to having an un-authorized discharge with a 105 howitzer has not been unusual.

If you are not a member of a TPI association yet have garnered the fruits of the Federation effort, how dare you comment! This is selfishness in the extreme and shows ignorance to boot.

How many of the readers here are Au-fait with the correspondence between Blue and the minister about our true entitlements.
If you have no knowledge then what are you doing here  making stupid comments.
Have you seen any other correspondence to the minister re omissions from the budget. [There have been some.]
How many have seen the RSL’s Mr.Crews rebuff of Blue’s approach.

Is there a representative of Brian McKenzie in this lot talking about conspiracies? Here is another deceitfull person.

There are quite a few people who work quietly and effectively in the background unlike some self-promoting others who do nothing but damage to the cause of the welfare of Veterans.

I have it on good authority that some of the state organizations are less than impressive in their representations of their members. Perhaps some here should go [after learning of all the facts] and rev these individuals up to get a bit more action on behalf of themselves.

How many of you have (so far) written to your local MP [hopefully cogent and politely]. Of course! You don’t have the knowledge of the facts. Silly bloody question!

I have no truck what so ever with some of the clowns labeled as mad galahs, some of whom I think have been erroneously labeled so, I detest being spammed by Allen Petersen who harvests e-mail addys, I have to put up with being spammed by Wiltshire, with ridiculous statements in which he appears to revel on TPI net, The childish maundering of people like Corse has cost me dearly in water bills for having to flush the vomit he makes me throw up.

The Diggers forum first rejected his rabble for their ridiculous behavior some years ago, and have ever since been on a vilification crusade.

The pleasing thing for the pollies is that we are once more a divided rabble.
There is nothing worse for a Politician than to be caught in the headlights, when it is bad news, it is the last thing he needs [unless there is someone shooting out the lights for him].

I can assure the readers that the motion of no confidence in the minister, moved by a member of the association was passed by a good majority of membership.

I can also assure readers that I was only just pipped to the motion by a mere second, being quite prepared to put the motion myself. The time was ripe as evidenced by the vote.

There has been some measured response on this list and to be frank I am disgusted with most, as their lack of knowledge and selfishness by not thinking of those who are worse off is not in accordance of the spirit of veterans towards each other.

It is not up to me to try and educate you into the machinations of organizations or try to have you act sensibly and hopefully with some basic knowledge and decorum.

When you slander the WA TPI association and its membership through pure ignorance I will speak in its defence and call fools just that.

No doubt there will now be an effort to discredit me. I extend the central digit.

There are many who have made entries here who know me well enough to know that I mean what I say and say what I mean.

Case
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Ethelred
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« Reply #279 on: Friday11September2009 »

There are various hysterical mad galahs and members of the WA TPI Association who are running around the place at the moment, frothing at the mouth and saying the mad galahs had no influence on the no confidence vote.

This is a lie.

There may or may not have been mad galah members present at the WA TPI General meeting. This is not the crucial issue. The issue is " did the mad galahs peddle the TPI Federation and WA Association unrest over the level of the TPI and did the mad galahs have any influence on the no confidence vote?"

The reply is a resounding YES.

Many many emails and phone calls flew around the country to support and foment unrest and advocate a political vote of no confidence in the DVA Minister, and the following ONE email is a glaring example of this and proof the mad galahs have been heavily involved in influencing what occurred at the WA TPI meeting.

Corse of course is in effect the mad galah founder and a vicious,irrational mad galah leading light. Jock O'Neill is a well known mad galah supporter. In particular he supports Tate and was at Tates book launch propaganda in West Australia recently.

This is what Corse had to say on 13 August 2009.

From: Barry Corse
To: 'Allen Petersen'
Sent: Thursday, 13 August 2009 10:02 PM
Subject: "The ANZAC Factor"


For your readers 

“the best veterans minister we have ever had has a PROBLEM, his masters have STOPPED listening to him, so NOW

he is as irrelevant as Billson became – as we foresaw and planned, that is why 2 months ago we launched our political counterattack to the surprise of BOTH sides of politics and the other ESO’s”, its so nice to see some coming on board, lovely to see Willie Crews and his new broom Doolie TOTALLY in another unrelated  non ANZAC world playing smiles with his fellow AWM director, that channel 7 chappie with all that lovely money he is helping OUR AWM with.

NOW both sides of politics understand we are no longer obedient conservative mushrooms, we have marginal political teeth and we will use them. The ALP at the moment do not believe the conservatives can beat the ALP and they are correct. However the whitlam arrogance has resurfaced and they have overlooked a small factor, “The ANZAC Factor” can cause the ALP to not win the election. As we get closer to either the earlier election or the full term election, the polls will confirm this swing from the ALP. Plus, China financially has NOT yet bottomed and if their plans work maybe the Chinese bottom will occur about June 2010. IF the Chinese real estate bubble bursts because the banks are over-lending under government orders, then the bottom of the Chinese economy will take longer to recover (global reality, slow economy China = slower Aussie economy)  = SO Ruddy and girls will have a greater financial shortfall that will make the ANZAC Community and our fellow middle ground have nots, VERY ANGRY with Ruddy and much unloved. Maybe the milky bar kid will melt in the political sun and stalins daughter with her new warm and fuzzie new feminie makeover will be imposed to save the alp and ANZAC land. The alp never learn from history, the last time they fell in love with a stalinist lover name of Arfie Caudwell and the middle ground did not buy that bullshit either J

 

ALL ESO’s with ANZAC balls Next time you are at your ESO monthly meeting send a message to this government of betrayal. Pass a motion of  "NO CONFIDENCE IN THE MINISTER".  (Frank, Jock O'Neil)


L Bodey has been a very active supporter of the TPI Federation and WA TPI Association for many years, though he prefers to remain low profile on the internet. This man has the ear of various critical TPI leaders and acts as the mouthpiece for at least one TPI leader.

Having said that, which can be proven with emails I hold, Bodey has done much good work over the years but he harbours a propensity for conspiracy theories like Wiltshire and he can be irrational at times.

Bodey would have been very very active in promoting the TPI vote and would probably have been at the critical meeting.

The following email from Bodey to various addresses shows just whom he communicates with in the mad galahs and in fact his address list reads like a who's who in the mad galahs. Therefore it naturally follows that he would have had other communications with these mad galahs and I believe this includes communications regarding the TPI issue and the vote. This is his right of course BUT the point is that once again we see a deep mixing of a critical TPI Association and Federation mover and shaker with the mad galahs.

Let's stop this nonsense that critical TPI leaders and movers and shakers have no contact with the mad galahs and are not influenced by what the mad galahs say and that they do not use the mad galahs to promote their interests.

This is the recent Bodey email.

From: Bodey L & R
Date: 9/09/2009 4:34:27 PM
To: Allen Petersen;  John \(Jack\) Robert Babbage
Cc: Frank \(Jock\) O'Neill;  Alf Hickinbotham;  Allan Wray;  Barry Corse;  Barry Sharman;  Bernie McGurgan;  Bill Taylor;  Charlie Matheson;  Dave Briggs;  David Christie;  Don Tate;  Gordon Hughes;  Hugh Barker;  Jim Wiltshire;  John Hannah;  John Hume;  Kevin Bovill;  Lee Walsh;  Milton Kirk;  Murray Clarkson;  Peter McDougall;  Rick Ryan;  Terry Davies;  Terry Westerway;  Tim Hayes;  Tim Hayes;  Tony Easterby;  Warren Ameduri
Subject: Re: WA TPI MAY SHOT THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT ?
 
 

Jack.

If nobody does anything then why should politicians listen?

Besides that I think that Jock O'Neill's response to your earlier missive was considered and rational.

It certainly did not appear to be "emotional".

Like Jock I don't think it behoves anyone who was not at the meeting yesterday to cast aspersions on the judgement of those who were in attendance.

After all, the motion came from the floor and the vote was all but unanimous.

Cheers.

LB

 
From: John (Jack) Robert Babbage
To: Allen Petersen
Cc: Warren Ameduri ; Tony Easterby ; Tim Hayes ; Tim Hayes ; Terry Westerway ; Terry Davies ; Rick Ryan ; Peter McDougall ; Murray Clarkson ; Milton Kirk ; Lee Walsh ; Laurie Bodey ; Kevin Bovill ; John Hume ; John Hannah ; Jim Wiltshire ; Hugh Barker ; Gordon Hughes ; Don Tate ; David Christie ; Dave Briggs ; Charlie Matheson ; Bill Taylor ; Bernie McGurgan ; Barry Sharman ; Barry Corse ; Allan Wray ; Alf Hickinbotham
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: WA TPI MAY SHOT THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT ?


On ya Jock,
 
Much better to get emotional, excited, irrational, lack perspective, be totally over the top and hope that wrong will be made right, oh yeah that will do it! Wondering all the time why is it that those who matter, the politicians, are not listening?
 
I note the total absence of acknowledgement, to my proposition that members in marginal seats be targeted by veterans and ex service members. Bye the way if that proposition is to be considered then now is the time to start organising so as to be ready before the next Federal election.
 
Perhaps better not, rather than organise, so as to achieve some thing, far better to talk about "... spark the tinder is dry and waiting", or ''gas chambers'', or "jack boot politics", all eminently guaranteed to attract attention, but unfortunately all for the wrong reasons.
 
For veterans to matter we need to be relevant and as I was writing I heard Bill Gaynor OAM JP State President, RSL, WA Branch, pontificating about women in front line positions, interesting that a been nowhere, done nothing, none entity, with an organisation that has more veterans out of it than are in it can be listened to. Incidentally I followed him and made the point that perhaps one of the reasons the ADF has problems recruiting members is that those thinking of joining have witnessed for them selves the lies and deceits former veterans and ex service members have been subjected to. Sattler agreed!
 
When it comes to issues pertaining to veterans and ex service members both sides will duck shove and try and apportion blame to the other side, the alternative is to get them in their marginals, THAT IS WHERE THEY ARE VULNERABLE AND THAT IS THE LANGUAGE THEY UNDERSTAND, any thing else don't bother, unless you want a new memorial some where or the where ever sub branch requires new table and chairs, with some additional improvements to the entrance!
 
Jack.
 
« Last Edit: Sunday20September2009 by Cassius » Logged
Fergus Fairfax
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« Reply #278 on: Friday11September2009 »

There are various hysterical mad galahs and members of the WA TPI Association who are running around the place at the moment, frothing at the mouth and saying the mad galahs had no influence on the no confidence vote.

This is a lie.

There may or may not have been mad galah members present at the WA TPI General meeting. This is not the crucial issue. The issue is " did the mad galahs peddle the TPI Federation and WA Association unrest over the level of the TPI and did the mad galahs have any influence on the no confidence vote?"

The reply is a resounding YES.

Many many emails and phone calls flew around the country to support and foment unrest and advocate a political vote of no confidence in the DVA Minister, and the following ONE email is a glaring example of this and proof the mad galahs have been heavily involved in influencing what occurred at the WA TPI meeting.

Corse of course is in effect the mad galah founder and a vicious,irrational mad galah leading light. Jock O'Neill is a well known mad galah supporter. In particular he supports Tate and was at Tates book launch propaganda in West Australia recently.

This is what Corse had to say on 13 August 2009.

From: Barry Corse
To: 'Allen Petersen'
Sent: Thursday, 13 August 2009 10:02 PM
Subject: "The ANZAC Factor"


For your readers 

“the best veterans minister we have ever had has a PROBLEM, his masters have STOPPED listening to him, so NOW

he is as irrelevant as Billson became – as we foresaw and planned, that is why 2 months ago we launched our political counterattack to the surprise of BOTH sides of politics and the other ESO’s”, its so nice to see some coming on board, lovely to see Willie Crews and his new broom Doolie TOTALLY in another unrelated  non ANZAC world playing smiles with his fellow AWM director, that channel 7 chappie with all that lovely money he is helping OUR AWM with.

NOW both sides of politics understand we are no longer obedient conservative mushrooms, we have marginal political teeth and we will use them. The ALP at the moment do not believe the conservatives can beat the ALP and they are correct. However the whitlam arrogance has resurfaced and they have overlooked a small factor, “The ANZAC Factor” can cause the ALP to not win the election. As we get closer to either the earlier election or the full term election, the polls will confirm this swing from the ALP. Plus, China financially has NOT yet bottomed and if their plans work maybe the Chinese bottom will occur about June 2010. IF the Chinese real estate bubble bursts because the banks are over-lending under government orders, then the bottom of the Chinese economy will take longer to recover (global reality, slow economy China = slower Aussie economy)  = SO Ruddy and girls will have a greater financial shortfall that will make the ANZAC Community and our fellow middle ground have nots, VERY ANGRY with Ruddy and much unloved. Maybe the milky bar kid will melt in the political sun and stalins daughter with her new warm and fuzzie new feminie makeover will be imposed to save the alp and ANZAC land. The alp never learn from history, the last time they fell in love with a stalinist lover name of Arfie Caudwell and the middle ground did not buy that bullshit either J

 

ALL ESO’s with ANZAC balls Next time you are at your ESO monthly meeting send a message to this government of betrayal. Pass a motion of  "NO CONFIDENCE IN THE MINISTER".  (Frank, Jock O'Neil)
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« Reply #277 on: Thursday10September2009 »

Frankly I can't think of a worse job in the world than Minister for Veterans' Affairs.  No matter how much you do, it's not enough.  It's never enough money, it's not the right indexation, it's not enough recognition of sacrifice.  And so it goes.  The same people who were your greatest supporters turn into your greatest critics.  As a junior Minister you cop it from the Cabinet, the back-benchers and the Opposition.  It's actually worse than being a Lance Corporal!
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Fergus Fairfax
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« Reply #276 on: Thursday10September2009 »

Well it looks like somebody in the mad galahs has a few brains and some common sense. Babbage has been on the Petersen list for ages and is now bucking the mg system. Mind you he has usually gone along with their stupidity. Watch out Jack because when you agree with the mgs and ask them no questions you are a hero and wonder boy, but the minute you disagree with them or question them they do what they love=====ATTACK.

Keep ya head down Jack.

From: John (Jack) Robert Babbage
To: Allen Petersen ; Allan Wray ; Alf Hickinbotham
Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2009 11:29 AM
Subject: WA TPI


The action of the TPI WA meeting in Moving, Seconding and Carrying a Motion of No Confidence in Allan Griffin, Minister for Veterans Affairs, at their monthly meeting, on Tuesday, 8 September 09 was at best naive and at worst verges on foolishness.
 
In enacting its Motion of No Confidence it appears that the WA Branch did not liaise with the National Committee/ Executive, ensuring that they, and more importantly the other States, were in the loop for what WA proposed to do, thereby highlighting the profile of the WA action, making National aware of it and possibly garnering the support of the other States, in the form of replicating the WA action and media releases, etc.
 
It is inconceivable that the WA Branch could enact something as important as a Motion of No Confidence in the Minister for DVA and not co-ord or liase with either National, or the other States, so as to be able to fire for maximum effect!
 
Why now? If you wanted to fire for maximum effect one would think that the WA Branch would have held off on enacting its Motion of No Confidence in the Minister to when the announcement of the next Federal election will be held, or during, the election campaign because when the next Federal election is called for the WA TPI to move another Motion of No Confidence will only devalue the currency, especially if nothing comes out of this one.
 
Remember today's news is tomorrows fish and chips wrapper! Thus far I have seen no media interest in the action and without that media coverage the action in its self is almost meaningless but not quite because whether the media cover the issue, or not, it is quite possible that all WA has done is put the Minister and government off side, sorry not necessarily a good move.
 
Currently I am being bombarded with a copy of a media release, as issued by Louise Markus. Well yes of course she is going to make political capital out of an attempt to embarrass the Minister and the Government, but here is the truly amazing part, no attempt by the WA Branch to extract from her an undertaking that if the Coalition regain government they will make good on what they did not do last time!
 
All WA has done is given the Coalition a huge boost, in the form of ammunition to embarrass the government, with no obligation back from the Shadow Minister. That has to be an opposition politicians, or shadow Ministers dream!
 
Having been unmercifully slagged for daring to suggest that the WA TPI has shot its self in the foot, I am mesmerised by the fact that no one has picked up on, or run with the suggestion that as veterans and ex service members we need to get active in the marginal Electorates, so as to make the candidates petrified about what veterans and ex service members are doing in their back yard and threatens their election, or re election prospects. THAT IS THE LANGUAGE POLITICIANS UNDERSTAND, NO MORE - NO LESS.
 
I SUGGEST THAT MOTIVATED VETERANS AND EX SERVICE MEMBERS, IN EVERY MARGINAL FEDERAL ELECTORATE, WITH THOSE IN SAFE SEATS, LABOR OR COALITION, CHANNEL THEIR ENERGIES INTO HELPING THEIR MATES IN THE MARGINALS AND SHOULD FORM AUSTRALIAN VETERANS AND EX SERVICE MEMBERS ACTION COMMITTEE'S OR GROUPS, IN THOSE MARGINALS, NOW, NOT WHEN THE ELECTION IS CALLED, SO AS TO BRING PRESSURE TO BEAR ON THE CANDIDATES, SITTING MEMBER OR NOT. ALSO THOSE COMMITTEES, OR GROUPS, SHOULD MAKE THEMSELVES KNOWN AT ALL THREE TIERS OF AUSTRALIAN COMMUNITIES, SOCIETY AND GOVERNMENT, LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL, WITHOUT FORGETTING TO TARGET THE TWELVE SENATORS FROM EACH STATE, BECAUSE THEY ARE OFTEN RESPONSIBLE FOR SPONSORING A FEDERAL CANDIDATE AND ELECTORATE, WITHIN THEIR PARTY FRAMEWORK.
 
PRESSURE AND ELECTORAL SUCCESS IS THE LANGUAGE POLITICIANS UNDERSTAND AND RESPECT. 
 
I will be rejoining the TPI, but I make the point that if veterans and ex service members want to be heard we need to make our selves into an effective lobby group and the only way we can do that is to marshall our forces, understand the specifics of our cause and LOBBY, mere insult and denigration aint goin to do it!
 
I am endeavouring to be constructive but if you do not like what I have written do not bother abusing me, just delete.
 
Regards, JR (Jack) Babbage.
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Ethelred
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« Reply #275 on: Thursday10September2009 »

O'Neill sees himself as the Veterans Saviour, as the font of all wisdom on TPI matters and as a knight in shining armour to us all. A knight none of us have asked for. There is ample evidence supporting my contention via the many, many emails O'Neill has been sending out for months and months, emails which are extremely arrogant, inaccurate, curt and short of reasoned detail.

Of course as Fergus says O'Neill has every right to take part in community debate and agitation. The problem with O'Neill is his attitude and limited knowledge. What knowledge he does have of matters is fed to him by those in the shadows of the TPI Executive world. O'Neill is being used as a mouth piece by those who prefer to remain hidden and secreted away. O'Neill is not the only Veteran doing this shadowy work and one can also include L&R Bodey and Allen Petersen.

Griffin will rightly ignore this vote of no confidence, and the Opposition DVA Minister will try to make hay while the sun shines.

In practical political terms this vote means nothing and blatantly ignores the reality of a popular Government and unpopular Opposition. In the world of politics this of course can change very quickly if the Government stumbles badly or worse still finds itself embroiled in some murky corruption and incompetence matters. This is unlikely to happen with Rudd at the helm.

So effectively the WA vote does none of us any good at this point in time. The Government has not completed one term of office yet and a Compensation Enquiry is in place which may recommend an increase to the TPI and DVA disability pensions.

This vote will play no part in the Governments determinations and decisions but will tarnish all TPIs if we allow it to. We should make a stand and say just where we stand. I stand against this vote out of pure political pragmatism, reality and decency---decency towards a Minister who is competent and dedicated.

You can believe or disbelieve me-----I am no Labor stooge or strident supporter. I simply believe in common sense, fair play and using our brains.

« Last Edit: Thursday10September2009 by Samsung » Logged
krt1.
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« Reply #274 on: Thursday10September2009 »

I for one would like to make it quite clear that Western Australia's TPI Association doesn't speak for me. If I do have a complaint I will go through a system which presents my complaint in a democratic and civil manner. Not with threats and innuendos about how so and so has done the wrong thing.

30 odd years of Public Service has taught me a few things, and one of them is that some things take time. There are priorities and needs in area's which must be dealt with in an expedient manner. It is all to easy to lay blame at the feet of those who want to improve the standards for all, when it isn't done over night.  As much as I would like to see many things improved for all of us, I can only thank the Good Lord that I am an Australian Veteran and not a Veteran of any of our opponents for the past 60 odd years.
I like many others, Sleep in my own bed, have a roof over my head, food on the table and in the pantry, my son attends a good school with good assistance for his learning difficulties. My wife has clothing, and her own little empire which she rules with an iron fist, (The Kitchen) We are a content family. Yes we can do with a bit more help, but with what we have we are content to live life as an Aussie Family. We can laugh, smile and share our good fortune with our friends. But the best of the lot is we are able to avoid the whinging, bleating, sour, degenerates of this world who see it as their duty to drag every one else down to their level of misery. So I will request that in future please be more precise as to whom you represent, and just state that you only represent your own selfish and narrow sighted point of view. Thank You.
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Fergus
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« Reply #273 on: Thursday10September2009 »

Fergus has never waltzed with politicians but has always been politically conservative, and his judgment of the current DVA minister is not based on personal preferences or political affiliations it is simply that of a Veteran’s personal judgment of the performance of a DVA Minister compared to others who have held the position.

F J O’Neill (He wrote the email shown below) dances with the stars of the Mad Galah movement. He has had a lot to say about matters veteran in recent times and he should not be condemned for being a “shouter” for veterans entitlements.  People like O’Neill are all part of the structure of Veterans’ political debate and he could be likened to a “terrier” that continually barks and nips at the heals of politicians.

“Terriers”, because they lack finesse, timing and political know how, must be kept on a leash and controlled by more level heads.  O’Neill has got off the leash, moved a motion, and obviously in cahoots with others, convinced the meeting that instead of just nipping at heals he, and they, should bite the DVA Minister. Unfortunately these kind of bites come back to the biter and usually end up on the gluteus maximus.

In other words, the motives of the WA TPI Association may be OK but their actions are premature, they have played a trump card in the form of a forlorn hope at the beginning of the battle, instead of steadfastly and intelligently steamrolling the Minister with cogent debate.

Perhaps in this assessment I am wrong, and perhaps those at the top of the WA TPI Association have allowed O’Neill to slip his lead and be their dupe, by prematurely attacking the hand that feeds them without those in the "back room" being identified.

Whatever the behind the scenes situation is, it has been poorly planned and prematurely executed.

Yes and Fergus thoroughly agrees with O’Neill’s sentiment expressed in his email shown below:

“Heaven help us from mealy mouth small minded men”

Aye

Fergus

 

From: frank

To: Frank

Cc: TPIWA ; TPI VIC ; TPI TAS ; TPI SA ; TPI QLD ; TPI NT ; TPI NSW ; TPI ACT

Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2009 1:11 PM

Subject: WA Vote of No Confidence - DVA Minister

What utter bullshit from an anonymous white flag. I proposed the motion a colleague seconded it and after debate it was passed. Are we to believe that all participants at WA TPI general meeting after listening to the debate were mesmerised into going against their good common sense and right thinking. Or do they see Alan Griffin for what he is a political opportunist climbing the greasy pole trampling 130,000 Veteran Disabled Pensions on the way. WA is not afraid to tell it like it is and we trust in our right thinking colleagues around the nation to think the matter through for themselves mindful of the young blokes and their families behind us. Haven keep us from mealy mouth small minded men.

He could tell his friend the Minister that he will refuse increases to his Disability Pension!

F J O'Neill
« Last Edit: Sunday20September2009 by Cassius » Logged
poppa
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« Reply #272 on: Thursday10September2009 »

I for one am very happy with the minister Griffin. He has provided and kept his promises and has made our lives a little more comfortable, Yes we can do a lot more to improve our lot, AND this can be done by lobby to your local federal member and or through the various groups of ESOs , The minister is not going to cop personal abuse from individuals and splinter groups, Yes we should be indexed with all our pension entitlements , Yes the DFRDB is another issue we get a rise there and we loose the amount from the service pension. This is one issue we should be fighting as the service pension is a payment for service and the dfrdb is a self funded super with goverment contibution. TWO very different
payments all together.     poppa
« Last Edit: Thursday10September2009 by poppa » Logged
William
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« Reply #271 on: Wednesday09September2009 »




" A Veteran is someone who at one point in his or her life wrote a cheque payable to the people of Australia for an amount of 'Up To And Including My Life'



Maybe the below email will explain the perceived inaction by Mr. Griffin and others!


-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bernardi, Cory (Senator)
Date: 9/09/2009 1:09:39 PM
To: xxxxx
Subject: RE: Arrogance as a substitute?
 
Dear xxxx,
Thank you for your email. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with me.
Having spoken to many Veterans and organisations representing Veterans, I am aware of the level of anxiety and unhappiness attached to the indexation of pensions. I have great sympathy for a more transparent and equitable approach to all pension entitlements. Indeed, I have made representations myself to seek to solve some of the issues that have been raised with me by members of the Veteran community.
However, for the accuracy of the record,  I received an email from Mr Petersen with an attachment.  A standard automated response acknowledging receipt of the email and detailing the priority given to South Australian residents was sent (automatically) to Mr Peterson. He then wrote an abusive email lamenting  ‘my pathetic response’. This is hardly the conduct or behaviour of someone who is interested in a sensible discourse to assist in solving an issue.
I accept that as public official I will encounter a certain amount of bluntness in pursuing my role, there is no reason for me to accept such displays of rudeness and be expected to enter into further dialogue.  I responded to Mr Petersen accordingly because, quite frankly I don’t want to receive more of his emails or be accused of ‘not responding’ to his communications.   Had he expressed his views in a similar manner to you then he would have found a strong ally.
That said, you are absolutely right about Rudd breaking his promises and I fully appreciate that people want a reasonable result on this matter.
Thank you once again for taking the time to contact me. I appreciate you doing so.
Cory Bernardi
« Last Edit: Wednesday09September2009 by William » Logged
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« Reply #270 on: Wednesday09September2009 »

AVM has received the following email. Fergus has made our position clear. Despite today's excuses emanating from WA which deny mad galah participation in the vote of no confidence we know the mad galahs have had a large input into the questions the TPI Federation and perhaps State Associations have asked of the DVA Minister. It's clear for all who can read that the TPI Federation and other TPIs are using the Petersen mad galah email list to peddle their immaturity and misinformation.

Minister Griffin is not perfect and we are sure he would be the first to admit this, however to hit him with a vote of no confidence and give a parasitic Shadow Minister a heads up and free kick is a plain stab in the back. Sure the Government must be monitored continuously and so should the Opposition but this action by the WA TPI Association is sheer childish nonsense and is a case of them simply trying to flex their muscles. If these people think the widespread unrest which was at large during the TPI campaign is present now then they are way out of touch and if they think the tactics of the late 1990s will work now and are relevant now then they should stand aside.

Barring a self imposed disaster Labor will be re-elected at the next election and if trends continue they will increase their majority. Any impartial commentator and political watcher can see this blindfolded.

We hold no allegiance to any political party but we do believe in giving credit where credit is due and we do believe in facing the reality on the ground.

The WA TPI Association is way out of its league, way out of touch and headed for self imposed embarrassment and marginalisation by its actions.

This is what we have received.

From: xxxxxxxx
To:admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 6:00 PM
Subject: Fw: MEDIA - Markus - Veterans' bearing the brunt of Labor's reckless spending


To All
Here is one war vet that isn't complaining. Ive got a roof over my head, ive got food, im in the last 18 months of paying my car off  , ive got Austar pay TV, im a  full member of my gun club, I was given government housing some 10 or more years ago when my second marriage failed. I don't smoke or drink and  my favourite song is "Always Look on the Bright side of life" and the main thing is !!! " IM ALIVE " . I have also raised a daughter from the age of 10 and she is now 20, all this on a TPI and Service pension. I think right now and with the pension increases on the 20th September 2009 we are not badly off men. But that's only my view and there are going to be a few who will bag me for the above and below, so you cant win em all.

xxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message -----
From: xxxxxxxx
To: alan@griffinmp.com
Cc: Kevin Rudd ; Griffin, Alan (MP)
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 5:44 PM
Subject: Fw: MEDIA - Markus - Veterans' bearing the brunt of Labor's reckless spending


G'Day Alan
Im not a member of the TPI Association nor the RSL so I can speak as I wish. Since I was deemed a TPI  war veteran back in 1984 ive seen a few minister for vet affairs and dealt with a couple.

But you are the only minister for veteran affairs that has said straight out "I don't know everything and im willing to learn from the veterans and veteran community" .

Alan you have also taken the time after work hours to ring veterans to ask them !!!  How you could help them" I know this because you rang me one Monday night around 7pm to ask me about a query I had about the 40th anniversary of the battle for firebase Coral in Canberra last may 2009.

Alan I don't know if you have met some of these veterans in Western Australia and I do not understand why they are not happy with you as minister for veterans affairs, it truly is beyond me. Alan you have made yourself available to returned veterans and many of the functions that they hold.

 So I am one returned serviceman that gives you the thumbs up and  im also going to run this email via the Prime Minister Mr Rudd. Alan you have only been in the portfolio five minutes and some expect you to produce rabbits out of a hat, just keep doing what you are doing and the majority will be happy. Regards

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Louise Markus MP

Federal Member for Greenway

Shadow Minister for Veterans’ Affairs

MEDIA RELEASE


9 September 2009


VETERANS’ BEARING THE BRUNT OF LABOR’S RECKL ESS SPENDING


Following a vote of no confidence in the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs by the Australian Federation of Totally and Permanently Incapacitated Ex-Service Men and Women, West Australia Branch, Louise Markus is calling on the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs to deliver on the expectations raised with the veteran community prior to the last election, or admit he has misled them.

“Prior to the 2007 election Labor raised expectations within the veteran community and assured TPI (Totally Permanently Incapacitated) ex-service men and women they would not be left out.

“It is clear by the lack of action by the Labor Government that disabled veterans are bearing the brunt of Labor’s debt and deficit caused by Labor’s reckless spending”.

 

Louise Markus said the overwhelming response from the veteran community is that Labor raised expectations to get their vote before the election, and now they have produced a reform bill that fails to include a number of disabled veterans and TPI recipients.

“Veterans are telling me they are very disappointed and are increasingly concerned by the continuous reviews being rolled out by the Labor Government.

“While Labor continues to stall on their promises, the men and women who have served our country still have the same cost of living pressures as other Australians.

“There was a gap between this group and other pension groups which the Coalition, when in government, closed. 

The recent $30 per week pension increase by the Labor government did not extend to some disabled veterans and TPI recipients and their families who now see the gap widening.  They feel let down by a party that committed so much before the last election” said Louise Markus.

Regards

__________________________________________
Cheryl Pagett

Mrs Louise Markus MP

Member for Greenway
Shadow Minister for Veterans' Affairs


EO 02 4577 2631 l Fax 02 4577 2640 l M 0400 794 966

24/227 George Street l Windsor l NSW 2756
APH 02 6277 2371 l   Fax 02 6277 8463

Parliament House l Canberra l 2600
« Last Edit: Sunday20September2009 by Cassius » Logged

Nuidat68
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« Reply #269 on: Wednesday09September2009 »

Bloody Hell this mob who are trying to get rid of Alan Griffin wouldnt know a decent government minister if he pissed on them. I have been on full TPI & service pension since april 1984 and in all the DVA ministers Minister Griffin is by far the best we have had in my view. Would they tell  me what other DVA minister who rings up veterans to ask them !!  How can he help. In all those yrs no other DVA minister has ever taken the time to ring me up at 7pm on a monday night and ask how he could help. This was to do with the 40th anniversary of the battle of "Firebase Coral" . Those trying to get rid of Minister Alan Griffin better have a good think about it.
Nui Dat 68
« Last Edit: Wednesday09September2009 by Nuidat68 » Logged
KCUF
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« Reply #268 on: Wednesday09September2009 »

It seems unusual for Blue Ryan to be involved with or influenced by these people.
If they have more support than Blue, WA Branch is in all sorts of bother.
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Fergus
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« Reply #267 on: Wednesday09September2009 »

The Western Australia TPI Association has moved and passed a motion of no confidence in DVA Minister Griffin.  Western Australia contains the nests of numerous radically minded conspiracy theorist Mad Galahs who spread their rhetoric nationally through the discredited mailman Allen Petersen, who also operates from WA.
 
Everything the DVA minister does, or fails to do, adds or substracts from a conclusion of how he compares with DVA ministers who have gone before. On balance Griffin weighs up as OK.
 
Griffin is a communicator. He can sit with a bunch of ex Servicemen and “off the top of his head” detail government policy and plans regarding Veterans’ matters without reference to notes.
 
Much rumbling about the Minister has come from the WA based Mad Galahs in recent times and it is possible the WA TPI decision has been influenced by WA based Mad Galahs and for the TPI association to be seen to be aligned with those dills is integrity suicide.
 
Griffin has delivered on many things, but it is perceived that he has failed to deliver on some things. Does this justify the tactics adopted by WA TPI Association?

It seems to me to be more of the actions of petulant drama queens who have spat the dummy for no other reason, other than they can.  It is an emotional response to something that needs hard headed and tenacious planning. Delivering a Vote of no confidence to the Minister is a fait accompli that should only be delivered when all else has failed and the consequences of the action is carefully appreciated.
 
It is hoped that other State TPI Associations would pass motions to the effect that they do not support the petulant actions  of the Western Australian TPI Association.

Aye

Fergus

« Last Edit: Wednesday09September2009 by Fergus » Logged
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« Reply #266 on: Saturday05September2009 »

Mr "Dustoff" himself. Just ask him.
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Fergus Fairfax
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« Reply #265 on: Friday04September2009 »

The spelling is Mylne.
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« Reply #264 on: Friday04September2009 »

If Glen Milne is the name of Joe no Brain's shylock, he is not on the nominal roll.
Like you, it is hard for me to fathom why a Vet would go into bat for such an obvious low kife.
Boots
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Nuidat68
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« Reply #263 on: Friday04September2009 »

 Yes Joe "Half A " Brain is the scum of the earth and I sat in the southport Courthouse and watched this low live get off almost scot free. Matter of fact i was almost thrown out of the courtroom because  i mumbled to myself  "What a low life" and his solicitor asked the judge to throw me out. Now a little on the Solicitor who defended "Joe Half A  Brian"
Solicitor GLEN  MILNE a VIETNAM VETERAN HIMSELF and at the time i think he was ZONE Rep for queensland RSL.  A rep from the DVA was in court to give evidence Mr Tony Walsh was Director of Special Investigation Group for DVA. For the life of my i can never & will never understand WHY a vietnam veterans would defend a  self Confessed Wanabee Fraudster can anybody understand WHY he would stand by this wankers side.
Nui dat 68
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Fergus
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« Reply #262 on: Thursday03September2009 »

Ex Citizens Military Forces Army Officer, Joseph Arthur Hugh Brain is a disgraceful example of a person who once held the rank of Major.  He is a fraud and a liar and although he has been comprehensively exposed he still maintains an air of innocence. In October 2005 he pleaded guilty to defrauding the Department of Veterans Affairs (DVA) of $90,000. Not content with dodging jail by the skin of his teeth he has “fired” up again and tried to convince DVA that he was entitled to other benefits because he served three years of his CMF Service on Full Time Duty. This mongrel pursued the matter to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal where he was well and truly trounced. The Deputy President of the Tribunal said of Brain:

“ I have considerable concern about Mr Brain’s reliability. It troubles me that he persists with an assertion that he served in Vietnam despite his pleas of guilty in the District Court at Southport to three counts of defrauding the Commonwealth by falsely pretending to have done so, and despite the fact that he made a public apology to the “veterans’ community and the Court “ for his behaviour. It is enough to say that I found quite unconvincing the explanation for his guilty plea when he says that in truth he was not guilty. On my observations of Mr Brain he has deluded himself about many aspects of his service career. It is enough to say that I am unable to accept his evidence on contentious matters”.

The Deputy President was too polite to say that Brain is a lying skunk, but we have no hesitation to do so -  Brain is a lying skunk.
Brain has taken up the Tribunals valuable time with his fraudulent endeavours.  This valuable  time could have been much better used by a veteran in genuine need.

ANZMI fully reported Brain when he offended in 2005 see here: http://www.anzmi.net/brain/brain.html 

To read the latest Administative Appeals Tribunal Australia finding see here:  http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/aat/2009/643.html 

Aye

Fergus

« Last Edit: Thursday03September2009 by Fergus » Logged
William
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« Reply #261 on: Tuesday01September2009 »

D371

This is the email address I indicated to you. His name is "Snow" Evans and should be of value to you.

bilgerat1@optusnet.com.au

Regards!

PS: Fergus, keep up the good work!
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Fergus
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« Reply #260 on: Tuesday01September2009 »

William

The tenor of my post is vindicated by the contents of your response.

Aye

Fergus
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William
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« Reply #259 on: Monday31August2009 »

As I stated in my reply the statement about the 18yr old was by way of an example, not fact.

Mulcare states that Raspe could not have hit his head as x turret was already firing. I assumed one
of them had their dates mixed up. I take Mulcare with a grain of salt because he works for
Wrightways. He has already discredited one person then was proven wrong. That case was the
Peter John Smith v Repat Commission before Senior Member Purcell in Adelaide. The Veteran
was called a liar based on Mulcare's expert advice and reports but a few months down the track
Captains letters from the Yarra were released and the Veteran was vindicated. This also involved
a diving incident but this was in Singapore Harbour during the Confrontation. The Veteran now
has T&PI for this.

Hawkins is not too hard to find, just google Hawkins v Repat. Commission in the Federal Court.

McKerlie and Repatriation Commission [2004] AATA 736 (13 July 2004). Was shown witness
statements from the other divers and/or ratings involved. The knife bit is which version one
wishes to believe.

I have been informed since this post that RAN personel did do shore patrol duties whilst in
Subic Bay in company with American SP. Anyone who had visited SB during this period would
not find a body hanging off a bridge to be at all surprising!

This statement by D371 would be one of the most factual statements I have ever read on any forum! "Being ex Army, I have no idea of what happens/happened in the engine room when providing naval GFS".

« Last Edit: Monday31August2009 by William » Logged
Fergus
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« Reply #258 on: Monday31August2009 »

William

Are you sure that an 18 year old was left sitting alone all night from dusk to dawn by himself manning a machine gun in the jungle in East Timor?

Is the diver story hearsay or is there evidence that it happened? 

Are these two events anecdotal or factual.  You see, what you have done is said things without providing proof that they happened. Some of the people that read it will believe you and some won't. Those that believe you will pass it on as fact when it is only something that has been said by you in an email that is not backed by evidence.

If the above events did happen then there would be nothing wrong with making claims and the events could have a permanent effect on the persons concerned. The point is that people like Raspe load up their claims with events that cannot be proven and in Raspe's case he is proven to be a liar in more than one aspect.

What you have also pointed out is that the Raspe's Subic Bay incident is well known "urban mythe" and Raspe may or may not have been a witness or may have just heard about it, and included it in his claim, the point is, that only Raspe knows the truth because he was conveniently with a USA shore patrol when the event is alleged to have occurred and there are no contactable witnesses.

Mulcare never said that Vendetta was in Vung Tau when a scare charge was accidently dropped he says that one was dropped on the 5th October 1969 and at the time it was dropped, X turret was at action stations and had been firing, Raspe said that Vendetta was at Vung Tau when he "bumped" his head. On the 5th October 1969 Vendetta was in the Da Nang area and had numerous fire missions.

Raspe's statement about the X turret event has many inconsistancies  for instance - where his cabin was located - what he was doing when the scare charge exploded - the location of Vendetta at the time. Mulcare would have quoted from ship's records. .  Vendetta was in the Da Nang area for the Whole of October 1969.  I have Vendetta's "Reports of Proceedings" for the entire deployment these documents are a daily log of all events aboard Vendetta.

Incidently Vendetta did fire in Vung Tau at an anchorage five miles off shore on the 20th Feb 1970.

I have not been able to find any Hawkins v Repatriation Commission in AAT Archives that would be relevant to your assertions, could you please direct me to the file by private email.

Please everybody when making entries stick to provable facts, if what you are quoting is anecdotal - then say so. Don't write something as fact if you have only been told about the event.

Aye

Fergus

   
« Last Edit: Tuesday01September2009 by Cassius » Logged
William
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« Reply #257 on: Monday31August2009 »

D371

Waiting for an email with email address of an advocate who may well have done the same trip but anyway he served on the gunline in the engine room.

Regards!
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William
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« Reply #256 on: Monday31August2009 »

Give you a case in fact. Vung Tau Harbour. First diver goes over the side to check for whatever. Unbeknowing to him another diver is ordered over the side and just happens to land on top of first diver. Because of the unknown and the fact you can not see two feet in front of you, both divers pull their knives and go at it for as long as it takes to sink in each other is not the enemy. This is a traumatic event, life threatening to the participants at that point in time, but as there were no enemy involved, does this then not come within the guidelines of the "Incurred Danger" criteria. Plenty of court rulings state this type of situation does.

Example; 18yr old told to man machinegun nest in East Timor at 1700 hrs and has to remain there all night in the jungle and the dark shitting himself something cronic because he was also informed that, lt's say fifteen thousand Indonesians are about to attack. The next morning finally arrives and there was no attack so is the fear of that attack as worse as if they had attacked. It is a human trait to experience fear in the circumstance I have outlined and it can be an utter relief if the attack occurs. The expectation alone of what one perceives after hearing stories ect of what is happening or is going to happen can have life long effects on a person especially if he has a vulnuable personality to begin with. Case in question Hawkins v Repatriation Commission.

A lot of what this guy says about Subic Bay is quite correct. Back then happened on a daily basis. Same went for Manilla. On you way out of the US Base one had to alk pass blown up photographs of what was left of US Sevicemen who strayed off the main road in Olongapo who were either stuck in the mud bank to be a feed for the crabs or had their privates cut off and sewn into their mouths. One was hang upside down and another was left alive to wander across the bridge towards the US Base. This was when the bridge was wooden, not concrete.

The one thing I can not figure out is that in his testimony, Commadore Mulcare stated that this guy could not have hit his head as the turret was already firing. Except for actually being attacked and the order to fire was given, I do not think any ship's Captain would fire off his guns in Vung Tau Harbour surrounded by all those trigger happy yanks!
« Last Edit: Monday31August2009 by Cassius » Logged
D371
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« Reply #255 on: Saturday29August2009 »

Hi,

I'm an Advocate with a matter to go to the AAT.
I have a sailor, very young at the time, who served in the engine room in the Brisabane on its last trip to SVN and the gunline.

Being ex Army, I have no idea of what happens/happened in the engine room when providing naval GFS.

Can someone give me a brief rundown on what actually occurs.
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Fergus
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« Reply #254 on: Friday28August2009 »

If you click on the reference you will notice that the bloke concerned is John Lindsay Raspe

As Raspe won the tribunal after careful consideration by learned judiciary, we as dilettantes can hardly criticise the finding. Although, we as individual ex servicemen can easily see that this bloke is a lying malingerer who has spent his whole life drinking grog and then blaming his subsequent problems on events, difficult to prove or disprove, that may or may not have occurred during his war service.

Unlike Kirkman and Muller he did at least spend some months on the Gun Line in Vietnam rather than fleeting and very safe visits to Vung Tau.
 
Unfortunately, simply believing that Raspe is a malingering crook is insufficient to expose him publicly by accusing him of being a fraud. In the cases of Kirkman and Muller there was irrefutable evidence to disprove the outrageous claims they made.

The problem is that Raspe’s stressors are rather "limp" for instance he said he was sleeping below the water line when the scare charge went off and bumped his head hurrying to action stations. He later admitted his bunk was immediately below the main deck and not under the water line. It was also pointed out that a scare charge did go off at the time he said, however it went off when all hands including him were at their action stations. He was in  X turret before and after the scare charge exploded and therefore his story of bumping his head in a bid to get to his action stations after the scare charge exploded is fantasy.
 
One can easily form and opinion that he was/is an alcoholic, but his alcoholism was not caused by the stressors he has stated as they appear to be mostly "made to order stressors".

Raspe's stressors - except for the gutted body hanging from the bridge - are all rather mundane and don’t seem to involve any situations that involved him to fear for his life. His report of the gutted body saga has never been corroborated.  He is also confused as to exactly who he was with at the time.
 
We will let this one pass with the comment that the most dangerous weapon ever used in the Vietnam war was the “Scare Charge” it has been mentioned over and over again in RAN DVA claims as being the cause of many peoples woes.

Come on Navy, that one is hackneyed put it away where it belongs under “B” for dulldust.

Aye

Fergus
« Last Edit: Friday28August2009 by Cassius » Logged
Zion
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« Reply #253 on: Friday28August2009 »

From: xxxxxxxx
To: admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:48 AM
Subject: Suspect fraud-JLR


My full name is xxxxxxxxx of
xxxxx
xxxxx

User name for xxxxxx" is xxx

I have enclosed a pdf file revealing the outcome of a tribunal hearing
regarding this Liar/fraudster.

I have checked his service records and it appears that he enlisted for
a nine year period but was discharged as unfit for service after doing
42 days detention reduced to 30 days for "good behavior".He also saw
"service" in the Vietnam area in the short time he was in the Navy

At this stage I do not wish to make any charges but do wish to seek
your opinion on what I have found.

You will note that in the "660" file the stories that were told to the
tribunal seem to be somewhat familiar with the stories told by others,
Molly Muller and Harry Kirkman You will also note that they all served
on the "Vendetta" It is also common for "messdeck yarns" to be passed
on from one crew to the next.

Common to all is the attachment to "foreign forces" at the time and
witnesses that are now dead, no written reports and no back-up from
the commanding officers. I think you get my point.

There is no doubt that this bloke is a rather disturbed character as
he has appeared on the internet here and abroad under various
usernames but always emphasizing his "Vietnam veterans" status.

His claim to be an alcoholic because of his "ordeals" may well be
true, but I rather think that was his frequent visits to the "wets"
that bought on the addiction.

The DVA obviously did not buy his story and hence his trip to the AATA.

What concerns me most is that the stories told to the tribunal are in
my honest opinion a bunch of made up impressions and that he has been
allowed compensation for it. To me that is fraud.

I eagerly await your comments

Cheers

AAT Case  http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/AATA/2008/660.html?query=JOHN%20LINDSAY%20RASPE

« Last Edit: Friday28August2009 by Cassius » Logged

bralig
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« Reply #252 on: Sunday16August2009 »

Should we alert the Salvos?   Shocked
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« Reply #251 on: Sunday16August2009 »

Just when we thought that it couldn't get any worse, the mad galahs are forming suicide and homicide groups to take on the pollies in Canberra as a form of protest.  On reflection, it mightn't be a bad idea, natural selection can only lift the average IQ of the mad galahs!  i suggest they attack the politicians while they are helpless, like when they are rolling on the ground laughing about the motions of no confidence.
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Fergus Fairfax
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« Reply #250 on: Sunday16August2009 »

Hello all,

The Federal Government recently announced changes to the way various Centrelink pensions will be indexed and the Government also announced changes to the dollar amounts of some Centrelink pensions.

The TPI Federation immediately lept to the fore by sending a letter to DVA Minister Griffin which stated that TPIs disability compensation pensions were missing out. The TPI Federation was quickly supported in this contention by the Vietnam Veterans Federation.

One may agree or disagree with the argument put by these two ESOs.

Almost as quickly as the VVFA, the mad galahs, led by their usual loud mouthed, ignorant and stupid leaders Corse, Wiltshire, Briggs ,O'Neill,Jim Duffield, Petersen and others were off and running, supporting the TPI Federation and VVFA. The problem as usual with this is the mad galahs have no detailed knowledge of entitlements such as the TPI pension.

However I notice the TPI Fed and VVFA have accepted the support of the mad galahs. I can say "accepted" because I have seen no denial or rebuttal of this mad galah support by either ESO.

These Ex Service Orgs must be desperate if they are going to let the mad galahs run with their campaign. Briggs has reverted to form along with the master of veiled speech himself Jim Duffield [from the far left whose daughter was/is a union organizer ] and others by calling for violent and aggressive occupation of Parliament House Canberra.

It was Briggs who called for the killing of former DVA Minister Bruce Billson in 2007.

Some mad galah madmen want us all to violently protest in Canberra. Their call to arms either violently or peacefully has a snow flakes chance in hell of being widely supported by TPIs or anybody else. While the current Government is not perfect [ which Government is ] most disabled Veterans reckon they have done a good job so far and see no reason to take over the Parliament building.

If the TPI Federation and VVFA think getting into bed with the mad galahs will gain them support they better think again. There are various members of the TPI Fed and VVFA on Petersens mad galah email list.

This is part of what has been floating around the place.

From: Allen Petersen
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:02 PM
Subject: WHERE'S OUR PENSION DEBATE ? **POSTS


From: Briggsy
To: CallToAction@Vets.com.au ; Jim Wiltshire
Cc: MP ALP Alan Griffin(Minister VA) ; MP Louise.Markus
Sent: Saturday, 15 August 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: Re WHERE'S OUR PENSION DEBATE ?


Come on guys lets stand back and look at this in a realistic manner. Firstly, we were planning an demonstration at parliament house, in the capital, against the then Howard government. We were pretty committed to doing it until we got feed back that some very ill veterans would have died if they took part and another group were set on turning the protest into a suicide/homicide venture and thus it was called off.

With all the current rumours surrounding the suicide club and its intended actions in the near future, do you really consider it appropriate to stage a parliament house/polly demonstration and thus creating the ideal venue for their planned activities, I for one do not.

Currently between 20 and 30 veterans are reported to have signed up for the suicide club and I have reliable information that there are also a number of serving ADF personnel willing to join the fray. Some of both these groups are mentally ill as well as terminal and not only suicidal but also homicidal, so please imagine what will occur if you add this volatile mix to your proposed demonstration. Are you prepared to be party to what may well be the nations biggest blood bath. This will do our cause no good what so ever and may even do it irreparable harm.

Secondly, the vote of no confidence in griffin. This is not a bad thing but needs to be taken to the appropriate level and that is the vote must include the entire rudd government and the DVA. Griffin is the minister responsible for the operation of the DVA but we know some of the permanent heads do not necessary heed all his directives. He is also a very low level minister and can only do what his masters direct him to do, if they fail to listen to him then his position is useless.

I am not protecting griffin, far from it but it is no point shooting him, when it will make no difference. We must clearly identify the correct target that will have the greatest impact for the ANZAC community, otherwise we are simply wasting our time and effort. Therefore any motion should be, the minister, DVA and the rudd government.

For this kind of motion to even get up in an ESO environment, let alone carried, strong argument (evidence) and support will be necessary, to simply rely on sentiment within the ESO will not be enough.

A more productive campaign may be for all veterans to state their protest direct to every politician they can contact. Also approach every independent pollie that comes under your notice and question them as to their veteran commitment and tell them what is expected if they hope to gain the veteran support and vote.

We must make it clear to all politicians, regardless of leanings, that veterans are no longer prepared simply to give away their vote because some generalissimo tells them too, it is a commodity that if they desire it, they have to earn it. Earn it with action and no more empty pollie promises.

Like it or not, we are at war, war for our very existence and that of past, present and future ANZAC's and it is a war we are not prepared to loose. For those that thought the nonaligned veteran was a formidable foe at the last election, let me warn you, you have seen nothing yet. So tell this to every politician and remind them, ignore ANZACS and then you better cultivate your centrelink contacts, because you will need them? .? ?
                                 
Regards, Briggsy


1. Increase TPI & DVA compensation & associate benefits
2. Adjust indexation to male total average weekly earnings
3. Redefine war service
4. Redefine clinical determination of service caused trauma
5. Create the PMVC
These are the Veteran 5 Demands originally agreedes to
by the government. some have been partially implemented and
some have been completly ignored. Judge for yourself with your
vote.


From: Jim Wiltshire
Date: 14/08/2009 8:11:50 AM
To: CallToAction@Vets.com.au
Subject: WHERE'S OUR PENSION DEBATE ?

We were supposedly trained to make decisions, sometimes decisions that might cost lives, and here we are behaving mostly like the prevaricating pontificating pricks who have shafted the returned digger for decades.  The only decision is no decision?  They've shit on us from a great height, we should deposit excrement on them from an equal height.  I want to piss on a politician, literally, metaphorically, physically, however, but not whenever.  Sooner rather than later.

I'm for a demonstration in Parliament House.

ASAP! 

I want to see us old farts putting our bodies where our mouths have gained no leverage for too long. 

In 2001 we were "gentle men."   Too bloody gentle.

We need to be animals.  I want to be seen being carried out of the chamber by FedPol.

Past giving a shit.

No more email, no more letters, no more "loyal" Veteran nice guy.  No more waiting on Matthews or any damn report.  For that matter, no more "enquiries" or sodding reports.

Anything else is piss and wind.

Pick a date during the next session in Canberra, no later for our "visit."

Next meeting of TPIWA  in Bull Creek is on 8 Sep.  Do I have a seconder for both an immediate


1.  Motion of no confidence in the Minister and the Parliament ,and

2.  A Motion to fund an Industrial Office within TPIWA to include a position of a professional Industrial Organiser/Advocate to be salaried to the staff of TPIWA under the guidance of a sub-committee, yet to be appointed, this Industrial Office to be answerable to the general membership, by no later than 30 Oct 2009?


Any decision is better than none at all.


Jim (Duffield)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
From: frank
To: Allen Petersen
Sent: Thursday, 13 August 2009 5:27 PM
Subject: Where Is Our Pension Debate.

Allen this is what I sent re No Confidence Motion date 13 July....Jock

[The so-called best minister we've ever had has reached his used by date. After 18 months in office TPI Veterans are going backwards. It's time to take the gloves off and fight for our pensions again. I thoroughly support Jock O'Neill's  proposed "No confidence motion", Griffin needs a wake up call. Stop listening to Crews and the bureaucrats in your dept and get back to grassroots veterans that helped vote you into office. Allen]

From: frank
To: alan.griffin.mp
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:14 PM
Subject: Where Is Our Pension Debate.


Where Is Our Pension Debate?

Probably the biggest insult to the TPI veteran since the end of the Vietnam War is the deliberate absence in the 2009 budget of any increase in value. Not only will there be no increase but many will have a decrease due to the income claw back via service pensions being raised from 40 to 50 cents in the dollar. This is an erosion of the comparable value of the TPI pensioners income against other pensions and the average wage.

This lack of integrity by the Federal Government is particularly galling as the "Rudd Labor Government" campaigned on a platform of improving the wellbeing of the sickest of the sick, the poorest of the long term poor. The TPI ex serviceman and woman. The glimmer of hope of a just, equitable income given in November 2007 when political expedience joined to grant the TPI pension indexation now less than 18 months later we are back to the dark corners of societies forgotten and in the welfare line.

Many of us have been resting on our laurels during this short time in the sun. Expecting the days to just get better lulled by the positive messages disseminated direct to our homes via the daily ministerial press releases. Just like when the bosses ran out into the streets pressing good folding money into the hands of needy passers by, it was all just pigs flying. Our votes were bought with false promises now this budget laughs at our belief in political integrity.

The Senate debate on the 2009 DVA budget matters looks like being guillotined by the "Rudd Labor Government". On the last day of sitting of the parliament this government just had time to scrape through the Age Pension changes with curtailed debate. The DVA budget was supposed to be next for debate.

The time has come to send the "Rudd Labour Government" a reminder that the TPI/Disabled Veteran community has woken up to their smoke and mirror tricks. It is time for the Minister to get out of the pavilion and make some runs for the veterans against the DVA and Treasury mandarins and Party bosses.

There is no bigger wake up call no greater an incentive an ESO can give a Minister than passing a motion of
"No Confidence" in him. That is not a good look for a minister in the party room, the spin room or the media room. Not to mention the effect on a political career pathway.

Next time you are at your ESO monthly meeting send a message to this government of betrayal. Pass a motion of
"NO CONFIDENCE IN THE MINISTER".

Your rights you fought for them. Your budget you earned it. Get it properly debated.

Frank, Jock O'Neill

From: Barry Corse
To: 'Allen Petersen'
Sent: Thursday, 13 August 2009 10:02 PM
Subject: "The ANZAC Factor"


For your readers

 

“the best veterans minister we have ever had has a PROBLEM, his masters have STOPPED listening to him, so NOW

he is as irrelevant as Billson became – as we foresaw and planned, that is why 2 months ago we launched our political counterattack to the surprise of BOTH sides of politics and the other ESO’s”, its so nice to see some coming on board, lovely to see Willie Crews and his new broom Doolie TOTALLY in another unrelated  non ANZAC world playing smiles with his fellow AWM director, that channel 7 chappie with all that lovely money he is helping OUR AWM with.

 

NOW both sides of politics understand we are no longer obedient conservative mushrooms, we have marginal political teeth and we will use them. The ALP at the moment do not believe the conservatives can beat the ALP and they are correct. However the whitlam arrogance has resurfaced and they have overlooked a small factor, “The ANZAC Factor” can cause the ALP to not win the election. As we get closer to either the earlier election or the full term election, the polls will confirm this swing from the ALP. Plus, China financially has NOT yet bottomed and if their plans work maybe the Chinese bottom will occur about June 2010. IF the Chinese real estate bubble bursts because the banks are over-lending under government orders, then the bottom of the Chinese economy will take longer to recover (global reality, slow economy China = slower Aussie economy)  = SO Ruddy and girls will have a greater financial shortfall that will make the ANZAC Community and our fellow middle ground have nots, VERY ANGRY with Ruddy and much unloved. Maybe the milky bar kid will melt in the political sun and stalins daughter with her new warm and fuzzie new feminie makeover will be imposed to save the alp and ANZAC land. The alp never learn from history, the last time they fell in love with a stalinist lover name of Arfie Caudwell and the middle ground did not buy that bullshit either J

 

ALL ESO’s with ANZAC balls Next time you are at your ESO monthly meeting send a message to this government of betrayal. Pass a motion of  "NO CONFIDENCE IN THE MINISTER".  (Frank, Jock O'Neil)
« Last Edit: Sunday16August2009 by Shadow » Logged
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« Reply #249 on: Wednesday12August2009 »

Correct.  It may leave McKenzie and Elworthy looking silly, but that doesn't translate to the VVAA in any way.  One ex-President, who is invisible on the National horizon and one of eight State Presidents support Tate while the others are either anti or unconvinced.  Or smart enough not to take a public position on a divisive topic. 

It's foolish to draw any organisational conclusions from this because you can safely bet that the ordinary membership is equally divided.  I've seen nothing which would show that the VVAA has any formal position on the Tate/D&E matter and it's not been discussed by my sub branch.

Some veteran friends are pro Tate, some are non-believers.  Most seem to think that the existence of the 2nd D & E is proven but take the "engineer's burial and headless bodies with a grain of salt.  Most consider that Tate is using his mates to drive up book sales.  Whenever Tate is attacked he defends his strongest suit, his documented service and the existence of the 2nd D &E, diverting attention from the weakest points, his presence at the ambush and subsequent disposal of the bodies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The recent revelations from the SAS member and Ted Colmer mean one thing.

Either Tate is lying or these two members are lying. I know who we reckon is lying, and we have made this clear for many many months.

So where does that leave McKenzie and Elworthy, former VVAA and current VVAA leaders and NAC member? It leaves them looking as silly and immature as they have always been.

These two characters have brought the VVAA into further disrepute by their unswerving loyalty to Tate and the mad galahs, it has shown them up for the opportunists and users they are and it means they do not deal in the truth and do not investigate and look at matters with open minds.

The VVAA would do well to cleanse itself of fools and little boys like these two and try to resurrect what is left of the VVAA reputation.
[/quote]
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« Reply #248 on: Tuesday11August2009 »

The recent revelations from the SAS member and Ted Colmer mean one thing.

Either Tate is lying or these two members are lying. I know who we reckon is lying, and we have made this clear for many many months.

So where does that leave McKenzie and Elworthy, former VVAA and current VVAA leaders and NAC member? It leaves them looking as silly and immature as they have always been.

These two characters have brought the VVAA into further disrepute by their unswerving loyalty to Tate and the mad galahs, it has shown them up for the opportunists and users they are and it means they do not deal in the truth and do not investigate and look at matters with open minds.

The VVAA would do well to cleanse itself of fools and little boys like these two and try to resurrect what is left of the VVAA reputation.
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« Reply #247 on: Sunday09August2009 »

Maryborough RSL:

Your understanding that the Maryborough RSL owns the club.

Any person who bothered to attend the many General Meetings between November 04 and August 05, there were about 8 of them before all the i's were dotted and the t's were crossed, could inform you that:

1.   With the approval of the members and the concurrence of the State Branch of the RSL the Sub Branch absorbed the membership, liabilities andd assetts of the club.   This was done in accordance with the Associations Incorporations Act 1981 and with the final approval of the Office of Fair Trading.

2.   On the 17 August 2005 the Incorporation Certificate of the Maryborough & Districts RSL and Citizen's Memorial Club Inc. was cancelled.

3.   On the 18 August 2005 the Returned & Services League of Australia (Queensland Branch) Maryborough Sub Branch Inc. began operations as an association that held a Gaming and Liquor Licence.

4.   Although the population of the area refer to it as an RSL Club there is actually no RSL Club in Maryborough, there is a licensed Sub Branch.

The RSL in Qld made a large loan to this RSL club or sub branch;

1.   The State branch of the RSL did make a loan to the Sub Branch and the size of it was caused by the State Branch wanting to have the sole mortgage, this caused all existing bank loans to be paid out with money borrowed from the State Branch.   All this was authorized by the members at general meetings of the sub branch in 2006/07.   Step by step of the loan process was explained at those meetings.   The State Branch Chief Financial Officer came to Maryborough to ensure that the members got the exact information they needed to approve the loan.

It would have insisted on a 51% share in ownership of the club.

1.  As stated there is actually no club only a licensed Sub Branch and according to law associations are owned by the members in total.   You can not give away 51% of an association, the Associations Incorporations Act precludes that.

2.   The sub branch owns 100 poker machines as well as the buildings and associated equipment that goes with a licensed business.   The State Government, at that time, valued a poker machine, accompanied with a licence, at $147,000, they would be correct as they expect 33% of the selling price in fees, so approximately the sub branch was sitting on $18,000,000, yes $18m, in assetts.   The loan was less than one fourteenth of that, so if anybody gave away 51% of that they would want certifying.

3.   The loan was a normal commercial loan with a couple of strings.   One was the paying out of all other loans leaving the State Branch holding the sole mortgage which certainly increased the size of the loan and State branch wanted to have an oversight in the management.   Management was in the hands of Sub Branch, State Branch only had an oversight but they did have the money.   The loan was only accessed as required.

4.   The loan was different to acommercial loan in another respect in that it did not carry a penalty for early repayment.

5.   The State Branch certainly does not hold a 51% ownership in the Sub Branch now that the loan has been repaid.

The current committee, with a few exceptions, is the same as the previous committee.

Hope this has explained a few of the answers you posed.

Rod Boulton
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« Reply #246 on: Saturday08August2009 »

Dear Rod 91281 I was and the St Marys President were not refering at all to the VVFA.

The split had occured some 10 years back from 2005 and they had no part to play.  I would like to debate you about corruption back then during the split.  But to what end.

We were reffering to disafected members within the VVAA Not the VVFA or the then NSW Branch of the VVAA which was part of tthe VVFA.

I and the President of St Marys stand by our comments.
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« Reply #245 on: Saturday08August2009 »

Dear CERTO, the 'Imposters Mob' as you refer to the VVFA, left the VVAA for the same reasons as are occurring now; the mismanagement of funds by the cocktail set.  One would think that the he would have honed his skills after the time he spent in prison for fraud or did he give the money back?
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« Reply #244 on: Thursday06August2009 »

AVM SAYS

Just a few short years ago [ 2004-2005] there were serious financial problems at the Maryborough [Qld ] RSL Club.

The propensity of some Qld RSL clubs to find themselves in financial difficulty is not confined to Maryborough and is not a new phenomena. We understand that all businesses are subject to the ebbs and flows of the financial and economic world and will legitimately slide into difficult trading circumstances and in some cases failure as enterprises from time to time. However, when an RSL club allows itself to shift into failure or near failure through the mismanagement and or fraud of its management Committee we are into an unacceptable and criminal area.

We will be exposing some of what happened at Maryborough, Qld, though the Maryborough situation is not the only worrying aspect of RSL club and sub branch management in Queensland.

You will find various attached documents which must be read to understand part of the Maryborough circumstances. Names have been expunged where needed to protect various parties.

Generally speaking the Maryborough RSL club found itself in serious financial disarray and the State Branch stepped in to rescue this Club from insolvency. Our understanding is the Maryborough RSL sub branch owns the Club, though we need proof of this understanding.  Qld State Branch  [the Brisbane HQ which oversees and operates the RSL in Qld ] made a large loan to this RSL club or sub branch and, if State acted like it has acted in other similar situations, it would have insisted on a 51% share in ownership of the Club. The loan would have to be repaid out of club profits. We don’t know and can’t get an answer to the question which asks does the State Branch retain a 51% share in the club after the loan has been repaid. If so this means the State Branch would retain part ownership in the club for nothing.

The Maryborough Club now operates successfully and we make no criticism of the current Committee in any way. Our revelations refer to the previous Committee and sub branch.

Not only did this club nearly fail, but there is evidence which says this failure was caused in whole or in part because of fraud and corruption. [ see attached ].

Once again if this is true this is not the only time a club and or sub branch in Qld has failed because of fraud and corruption, and indeed incompetence.

AVM says that if anybody in any ESO has evidence which suggest criminal activity within that ESO or ESO owned business then that person/s has a legal obligation to take that evidence to the Police to allow the due processes of law enforcement and Court procedures to unfold. This did not happen at Maryborough, and should have happened and should happen now. For the Qld State Branch to place the name of the RSL before due legal process is in itself a breach of the Law in various areas, including Corporate Law.

Therefore we are circulating this information widely to draw your attention to the Maryborough circumstances and allow you to draw your own conclusions. Passage of information is almost non existent in the Qld RSL and indeed in most if not all ESOs. The Troops must be kept informed. There is no room for covering up criminal activity in any ESO.


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« Reply #243 on: Wednesday05August2009 »

This was sent by e-maiil by the current President of St Mary around the traps in NSW who was also at the meeting.

XXXXXX, this appears to be the work of the 'imposters mob' ex members of VVAA NSW, Tas and ACT I reckon. I
believe the transcript shows how transparent we were at the time with BEST
funding, a lot of questions asked, and answered satisfactorily. From memory
it was an OPEN forum with the committee and there were other ordinary
members present.  Digging up dirt where there is none.  I also think that ED Killestyne & Sedeke were aware of it
at the time?? so I don't know what this mob is on about or in truth who supplied them
with this info. I'll talk with CC when I see him and see what his
recollections are but I think he would agree with my comments
above...cheers...XXXXXX
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« Reply #242 on: Wednesday05August2009 »

I was at that meeting at St Marys at that BEST meeting.  What is your point.  Like all meetings held by VVAA NSW we Minute them and if the discussion is to the point and direct GOOD.  There in no inpropriety going on then or has there been since.  DVA did an audit and all was clear.  Whoever is sending you this stuff is seeking to discredit a very open system that is quite transparent.  It would be nice to see other ESOs make avaiiable their minutes.

VVAA NSW has nothing to fear or hide from even back in 2005.  The problem was being directed at then St Marys President who wanted the money to buy jackets and sofa chairs.  It was a second allocation for the year.  Good on you VVAA NSW for keeping minutes.

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« Reply #241 on: Wednesday05August2009 »

Mismanagement, rorting, misuse of BEST Funding

http://www.dva.gov.au/ex-service_organisations/best/Pages/BEST.aspx 
 

What is the BEST program?

BEST – Building Excellence in Support and Training – is part of the government’s commitment to support the role of ex-service organisations’ (ESO) pensions and welfare practitioners and advocates and those national ESOs who provide administrative and representational support within the veteran and service community. The BEST program assists by providing monetary support to ESO practitioners.

The aim of BEST is to provide support and resources to ESO practitioners for pensions and/or welfare work to assist the veteran and service community.

What is funding available for?

BEST funding can provide assistance for:

·     salary costs for full or part time practitioners by ESOs;

·     salary costs for full or part time administrative support staff;

·     computer equipment used to assist ESO practitioners and;

·     consumables, running costs and other general costs relating to the lodgement of claims and appeals.

Who can apply for funding?

Bona fide ESOs that provide welfare and/or pension assistance to veterans, past and present members of the Australian Defence Forces and their dependants can apply for funding under BEST. In regional areas, where it is economically viable, the department encourages ESOs to explore the option of a cooperative project/centre taking advantage of two or more ESOs to increase efficiency and effectiveness.

AVM SAYS

The BEST funding programme has been in place for use by ESOs for many years, and both sides of the Parliament have supported it. You can read a little above about BEST and what it is meant to be used for. More can be obtained by clicking on the DVA website provided above.

Many ESOs who use the BEST funding programme do so with honesty ,due process and due diligence. However there are elements in the ESO community who misuse and rort BEST funding.

Many tens of millions of taxpayers dollars has been spent on this scheme, which Government designed to support the genuine work of ESOs. However there are ESOs and individuals in ESOs who think this money is their own, who think the Australian taxpayer has an obligation to fork out these huge amounts and there are those who thieve, steal, misuse and otherwise misappropriate BEST funding for all sorts of nefarious purposes.

AVM says any illegal use or false accounting of BEST funding is clearly a crime and is clearly not the intention of Government or Opposition. We say any misuse of these funds must be a matter for DVA and the Police to investigate and we want to see ESO community members stop these practices and report them to the appropriate authorities.

BEST funding rorting has become so endemic and systemic in some areas that we believe the Government must launch a forensic audit of the books of all ESO BEST funding recipients to tease out those who are not only misusing taxpayer funds but who are cheating their fellow members of money and services.There must be full and proper accountability. The current reporting methods are not working.

We now present for you the minutes of a NSW VVAA BEST Committee meeting from 2005. These minutes speak for themselves. We note some obvious points from these minutes which are the obvious sham accounting practices, brow beating, failure of due process and misuse of BEST monies. 

We are not picking on the VVAA. The problem exists across ESOs and if we happen to uncover other documentation we will publish it, no matter which ESO it emanates from.

 

TRANSCRIPT OF BEST MEETING HELD AT ST MARY’S RSL

WEDNESDAY 29TH JUNE 2005.

 

1.  BB. “The only equipment which was asked of this round was from St Mary’s”

2.  BA: “This is what was budgeted to give to the Sub-branches out of round 6 including phase 1.  Bathurst $2750,  we gave $1395

    SWR: $6350, we gave $ 12595.80

    Ryde: $7850 we gave $7416

    St Mary’s: 15050 we gave 15573.00

    ND: $3350 we gave $4949.00

3.  CC: “Barry you said you gave St Mary’s $15573.00 we haven’t had any money since January 24th and according to the minutes of the BEST fund meeting here we only received $15050.00”  BA:  “No $15050 is what we budgeted for”  “Here is what you got: Toshiba laptop computer $1999.00, computer case $50, canon bubble jet printer $398.00, External hard drive $198.00 and another for $228.00. On 12th August you got consumables for $6000.00 and internet for $350.00, on 14th January you got consumables for $6000.00 and on 16th January you got internet for $350.00. Total $15573.00.”

 

4.  CC: “Doesn’t figure with the BEST Fund meeting we had in January”  BA: “But that was the budgeted figure”.  “we allowed for the laptop $2500.00 for it, where in fact we got it for $1999.00, these figures were not issued at that meeting but were going to issue I’ve allowed $2500.00 for it whereas we got it for $1999.00, I am giving you actual figures that we have given St Mary’s”

 

5.  GF: (confirmed the figure of $15573.00)

 

6.  CC: “Well actually we budgeted for $22000.00”

 

7.  BA: “No, $15050.00 is what the BEST Committee of Billings, Kirkman and Anderson made a budget out in July”

 

8.  CC: “well that is being disputed again in that BEST Funding meeting, it says here quote in consultation with the Outpost President who was then on the BEST committee, that was Harry, the Outpost would require $22800.00”

 

9.  BA: “Might require, but that’s what we budgeted for”

 

10.  CC: “Well he’s saying they did”

 

11.  BB: “Whose saying we did?”

 

12.  CC: “Harry”

 

13.  BB: “Well, where is Harry?”

 

14.  CC: “He’s not here today, but we had a BEST funding meeting in January, ….”

 

15.  BB: “I know what was said, I know exactly what was said, he was part of the BEST Funding co-ordinating committee and I’ve got the Bids here and we go over, we said to him, because at the time we’d be able to give $22000.00 because that’s what his requirements were, Ok?, and the State President said in an email to him that we would most likely meet that obligation, ok?”

 

16.  CC: “As I understand it, St Mary’s put in for $40,000.00 originally, out of the $82,000.00 budgeted for St Mary’s $22800.00 and from Barry quote I can see no reason why St Mary’s can’t get the $22800.00 I can still see no reason why you cannot get that – and more unquote. “That’s what this President said not what Mr Kirkman said”

 

17.  BA: “I’m saying that at our budget meeting where set all the budgets where the three of us were there it was agreed with Harry, that you would receive $15050.00, Barry and Harry may have had telephone conversations about other monies to which he agreed to, it was not agreed to by the three of us collective, and what was approved.”

 

18.  BB. “let’s go back to those minutes and we’ve had this discussion before, I did say those words, in fact I’m going to say those words now, there’s no reason why St Mary’s will not get $22,000.00, they put in for $40,000.00, South West Region put in for $38,000.00 they didn’t get that…..”

 

19.  CC: “we’re not expecting $40,000.00 but you must remember that you in Round 6 put in for $135,000.00”

 

20.  BB:  That’s right and we got $82000.00”

 

21.  CC: “But in round 6 in total you got over a $150,000.00”

 

22.  BB: “No hang on wait one, let’s go back to this bidding, and now we’re to discuss the supplementary, you can’t join the two…..”

 

23.  CC: “yes you can certainly you can, it’s still Round 6”

 

24.  BB: “What’s your beef? What’s your problem?”

 

25.  CC: “We need to see what we are going to be offered….”

 

26.  BB: “You are not going to be OFFERED ANYTHING, you are going to be told WHAT YOU ARE G0ING TO GET, it’s not an offering it’s not to be discussed Chris”

 

27.  CC: It has to be discussed, I mean to sit there and say your not discussing it, who allocated it, I thought we had a BEST Funding committee….”

 

28.  BB: “We have, you’v had your say, now I am going to have my say, we’ve got $71,290.00 come in, I’ve asked for submissions from each Sub-Branch for that amount, St Mary’s I got a submission for $2750.00 for a photocopier, laser copier/scanner/fax $1650.00 no other equipment was asked for by anybody. That will be allocated to St Mary’s straight away.”

 

29.  CC: “You haven’t taken into account the original Round 6 bid of what equipment we require, now what you are saying really and truly we are splitting this Round 6 bid…..”

 

30.  BB: “No, No, what’s happened and I think every President here can say this, that when we went to Round 6 we called all the Presidents in and asked them what their bids were, because it wanted modification, and that is what we bidded for and we’re $200 short on their bids”

 

31.  CC: “In grand total, you’ve got over a hundred and fifty grand, of which St Mary’s at the moment would have got roughly 14% of the total”

 

32.  BB: “Let’s go through the percentages then…..”

 

33.  CC: “You said that you’ve got $71,290.00 when in fact that is not correct either, because in the January meeting, you said to us on January 24th  that there was $16,700.00 left in the kitty at that time, now since that time going through the financial accounts for BEST Funding and advocacy work there has been a total of roughly $5000 out of that money spent up until April the 29th, well, I’m only going on the accounts……”

 

34.  BB: “Treasurer give the figures”

 

35.  BA: “We did a transfer between BEST and our general funds of $10,000 odd dollars, to cover for all our expenses which we needed for administration”

 

36.  CM: “Which is the usual practice at the end of the financial year”

 

37.  BB: “When the State accounts come out for the next quarter you will see it”

 

38.  AH:  “Can I put something in here, we got $14000 something the first round, now we are getting another 15 right? …”

 

39.  BB: “No, round 6 first time…”

 

40.  BA: “You got $15,573.00”

 

41.  AH: “That was out of that $82000 so out of this new one we are getting $15000….”

 

42.  BB “No your not, we’re going round in circles, I’m trying to explain and I don’t know what the point is.”

 

43.  BA: “Your asking on the full amount and we haven’t allocated out of phase 2 out of Round 6 yet”

 

44.  CC: “what I’m saying is, in total you have over $150,000 now our original bid, whether it’s supplementary or not, our original bid was $40,000, now out of that of the 82 we got 15500, now, out of the second round of 71 and I’m waiting for you tell us what we are getting out that, this will tell us whether we are getting a fair deal or not, or where the money is going”

 

45.  BA: “Now hang on, what do you call a fair deal, now I remember I had a private conversation with you at that meeting, and you even said to me that you believed that smaller branches should be getting more funds than the bigger branches”

 

46.  CC: “No I didn’t, I said, if they need the help to come up…………..”

 

47.  BB: “This was a discussion between you and me”

 

48.  Note: There appeared to be some confusion as to when this discussion between Barry Anderson and Chris took place.

 

49.  Unknown voice: “Can’t we get on with it and do the allocation?”

 

50.  GF: “let them progress and we’ll get back to it”

 

51.  BB: “Gentlemen, overall, I can never understand your figures Barry, you read out how much …..I don’t understand it”

 

52.  BA: “As at yesterday, our balance in our ledger $40840.00 that’s what is left out of the $71000.00.

 

53.  BB: “Can I just interrupt for a second, now this is where everyone gets confused, $71000 was paid into our account, that came in last week, what Barry is saying that with all the outgoings, since then,  go..”

 

54.  BA: “We have $40840 dollars at the moment to spend. Outgoings $20877 for Congress; $5551 outstanding for postcards at this stage”

 

55.  BB: “Now on saying that before anyone asks, we’ve got over $10,000 of invoices coming in and they can come in at any time, postcards come in to the costing and comes back in with a small profit to us ok?” “So there’s ongoing money there, so that’s all we’ve got to play with. Now, the allocation is this……”

 

56.  CC: “Now I’m just a bit concerned about the spending of BEST money on Postcards from Saigon”

 

57.  BB: “BEST Funding is now an internal raise to move $71200 into general ledger from BEST I have approval from DVA to do it ok? Does that satisfy you with BEST funding?”

 

58.  CC: “So you can spend it on anything”

 

59.  BB: “ NO, on this occasion I have asked for permission because of the lateness of this coming in and us spending revenue from the general account, and bringing down to $500, I asked for dispensation and a change in the agreement that money, I was wrong there saying the full $71000, this allocation is $21400 will stay in BEST the rest will  come over to General Account to make up for the money we spent in that period waiting for the money to land, as we all know the eagle was landing and everyone was getting pretty dry, as it didn’t land until last week”

 

60.  CC:  “I have no problem with that, you got permission from DVA to change from ………”

 

61.  BB: “I can only go by the questions you ask, the first question was how come we can spend BEST money like this, I’ve answered that question. Have you got another question, we keep going around in circles I don’t understand”

 

62.  CC: “ let me understand this, you’ve transferred to the general ledger so therefore you can spend it as you wish.”

 

63.  BB and BA (Together) “We will do that after we get the allocation”

 

64.  CC: “and you have approval from DVA to do that”

 

65.  BB: “We have to get permission from DVA to do that”

 

66.  CC: “You said you had”

 

67.  BB: “Yes, I’ve spoken to John Sedeke”

 

68.  BA: “When we physically get it in writing, we won’t do it until we get in writing”

 

69.  BB: “It’s called management”

 

70.  CC: “I’m just wondering where the $150,000 has gone”

 

71.  BB: “Well, your going to find out in a few minutes; St Mary’s allocation  $2750 for a photocopier, $1650 for laser copier/scanner/fax; $ 5000 in cash for consumables, I think that takes you well over your $22000.00”

 

72.  “SWR you will get consumables of $4000.00”

 

73.  “Ryde consumables of $3000.00”

 

74.  “Taree will get consumables of $1500.00”

 

75.  “Northern Districts $3500.00” 

 

76.  “Total consumables and equipment $21400.00 leaving in the account $19000.00. Now that should take everyone just a little bit over their bids, the original bids for Round 6”

 

77.  CC: “Our original bid was $40,000.00”

 

78.  BB: “What do you want?”

 

79.  CC: “I don’t like you saying our original bid was $22000.00, it wasn’t, original bid for Round 6 was $40,000.00 out of $135,000.00, you’ve got $150,000.00 now ………..”

 

80.  GF: “The original was $135,000 so it is $15,000 over the original bid we put in for”

 

81.  CC: “That’s right, I reckon we are $17,000 short, now I look at Round 6 holistically that is the total amount of $150,000 now everybody put in their bids at that time, St Mary’s bid at that time was $40,000, I’m not sure what SWR was…”

 

82.  BB: “Let’s go over the bids again from last year -Barry”

 

83.  GF: “Realistically, all Sub-Branches should get what they submitted”

 

84.  BB: “No that’s not necessarily so, we run a state too Gary”

 

85.  BA: “State didn’t have a submission”

 

86.  BB: “Do a breakdown of the State Advocate, how much was he paid, this is what they want to know”

 

87.  CM: “State doesn’t have a bid but they have to pay for this Advocate which is quite expensive”

 

88.  CC: “I’m just going on what you have here, you’ve put in for what you believe – allocation of fund will be sought to do the following: Admin Assistant, Advocates Position, there all State there not Sub-Branches, so you have put in your bids. When you put in your allocation to Government and there it is there, that’s what you are saying, this is what we will be doing, so in that bid of $135000 you actually included all those costs in your bid , and I might say that you also included a bid for travel, which is State money not Sub-Branches, in fact there was a number of areas you were going to visit that you put, so that was all included in that $135,000” So, all I’m saying here Barry, is we expect out of $40,000 that we put in, we’ve come away with roughly about 54 or 55% of that total amount, to me that money is going completely into the State’s coffers and not the Sub-Branches”

 

89.  BA: “Do you want me to bill the sub-branches for every bill we get…”

 

90.  BB: “Stop stop stop, I don’t want an argument here I want a proper meeting, Barry stop (Interjections – hard to follow)

 

91.  BA: “I don’t want this F****ing job you can keep it”

 

92.  BB: “Now will you all settle down and take a deep breath. Now Chris you are saying you got 54% roughly. Ken how much did you get?”

 

93.  KF: “I think there’s one part that may have been overlooked, our original bid was a lot higher that what went in after we had that first meeting last year, and that was because that when we put the bid in it was pointed out that there were some things in that bid that were not allowed by BEST I went back then to the original guidelines put out by the department which say what will funding be available for:  Salary cost for or part time practitioners, Salary cost for full or part time staff, computer equipment, consumables running costs and other general  costs relating to the lodgment of claims and appeals. That’s the only consumables, which are allowed under the program. When we put in our bid, we put in for things that were not included in those guidelines and were deleted, so our original bid of $30 odd thousand dollars by the time it went in as part of the State submission, had been reduced, I’m just wondering whether St Mary’s $44000.00 that there were items in that bid that were not covered in those guidelines as what happened to us. We were told at the time that DVA had disallowed those things therefore our bid had been reduced, our original bid was for say $40,000 but it wasn’t within the guidelines therefore it wasn’t a legitimate bid, now maybe what we need to do is go back through those original bids and look at what was put in and what was accepted by DVA as being legitimate, because it is fairly straightforward guidelines, the consumables are very restricted, I was told that we could only have funding for one basic internet connection and we would have to fund the rest ourselves. We accepted that, our original bid was for about 5 connections. If St Mary’s put in for connections for every computer you’ve got then ……..”

94.  GF: “No we didn’t”

 

95.  BB: “I can tell you what you put in for, I want to know – you’ve got 54%”

 

96.  GF:  “Not 54% of the total”

 

97.  BB: “No, I’m not saying that, Barry will give you now, I am going to let him speak freely without being interrupted, the full breakdown of BEST and where it’s going and it’s allocation and what State’s requirements are, please allow him to do it without interruption – Barry”

 

98.  BA: “One thing I just want to put on the record for you, is at this stage BEST account should be $69229.51 without these allocations we’ve just talked about, so there’s another $21000 odd to come off that, BEST should be running at $45000 say, after today’s cheques. The reason it is not running at that is because we have expenses that hasn’t been covered such as Congress 20 Grand – that has to be paid somehow – we can put that money back into BEST and charge Sub-Branches for it, which would send some Sub-Branches broke. (everyone suddenly talking at once too hard to decipher)

 

99.  BB: “We’ve got a committee put down by State Council of how this is going to be allocated and run”

 

100.                  CC: “And the State Committee did that?

 

101.                  BB: “The state committee did that”

 

102.                  CC: “I thought Mr Fizzell was on that”

 

103.                  BB: “Harry Kirkman your past President was on it, now let’s bring up a few things about your past President, your belting State over the head at the moment with bloody figures and we want to belt someone else over the head. Now let me tell you right now, I’ve heard threats that if we don’t get our allocation we are going to go on our own – DO IT, and I’ll FIGHT YOU EVERY INCH OF THE WAY and right to the Ministers office”

 

104.                  JF: “What a great meeting”

 

105.                  (Shouting match ensued between Keith Woolfenden and BB)

 

106.                  CC: “Harry may have said we will go alone, but we haven’t said that, we may have said we will investigate going alone and there’s nothing wrong with that, if you want to threaten that you are going to take us to the Minister and all that, well then we may do the same to you, I was hoping that there would be no threat to go, there was in January, there was a threat to go, that threat was quietened down, but however, if we don’t think we are getting a fair shake mate, we might well look at going alone”

 

107.                  BB: “St Mary’s is getting a lions share of all BEST Funding in this State, even above State….”

 

108.                  CC: “State has taken 70% of this last funding…”

 

109.                  BB: “What for, we got stuck with $20,000 for Congress, now there are three ways I can go and raise that ok? This is out of your money, this is out of Sub-Branch money, $20,000 went to Congress, I’m sitting here with some frustration too”

 

110.                  AH: “I’ve got no problems with that $20,000 ……..”

 

111.                  BB: “I do have a problem with it, and I want to articulate that problem. We put in for $20,000 right? That belongs to the Sub-Branch, now we had to pay for Congress, normally what we would do for Congress would be to go out and raise the money. Because I did it on my own, and putting it together, and if it wasn’t for St Mary’s coming behind me and supporting me the whole bloody thing would have fallen apart. I didn’t have any chance to go out and do any fund raising. No one else has offered to do any fund raising.”

 

112.                  AH: “What you can actually say Barry 153 actually comes down to 133 because you took that 20,000 out for Congress.”

 

113.                  BB: “Right, now we’ve got to come down to step 2 where the money comes down. That’s Postcards from Saigon, and we’re recovering money on that plus profit, but there is cost involved in it, it’s not even on consignment, it’s within a week of spending sending the bill with it and get the money in. But the money has got to come in. ok? Now that would normally come out of general funds, it wouldn’t come out of BEST Funds, but since we’ve used general funds, right? To cover BEST because we were all told that this extra money was coming in we all went out and spent. Quite rightly, I’m not criticizing that, then the bloody Minister went over to Gallipoli done a trip around the world then came back and signed the bloody thing. We didn’t get the funds until last week. By the Act and by the Agreement, we’ve got to have the money spent by tomorrow. That’s not going to happen, so we got special dispensation to carry it over. Gary and I went in on round 7, because in July we asked for $172,000 and they knocked it back by $20,000 didn’t they Gary?”

 

114.                  GF: “Yeah $155,000 I think”

 

115.                  BB: “$155,000, now that will land, it supposed to land the first week in July, there’s no chance of that happening, so we are looking at the end of July, so this is going to carry you over to that, and then we are going to balance it out.”

 

116.                  Unknown Voice: “Barry when are these cheques likely to be issued?”

 

117.                  BB:  “Today”

 

118.                  AH: “What was that for Postcards from Saigon, how much was that - $6000?”

 

119.                  BB: “About $5000”

 

120.                  AH: “actually what we are bringing it down to is $127,000 is what we have to distribute, is that right?”

 

121.                  BB. “I’m going to go through all that in a minute ok? Now the next one is we got a bill from the solicitor, $5830. Now this Association last year spent $4300 on solicitors over the Taree matter and over some other matters. We’ve just written out a cheques for $6000 for solicitors which is a National matter.”

 

122.                  KF: “Why wasn’t the bill sent to National ?”

 

123.                  BB: “The bill was sent to National, because Congress failed to vote allocation of funds. So NSW has taken the position quite rightly, you pay for it, we’re instructing, we’ll decide until you pay for it, you get nothing. Why should NSW carry the full debt for that?’

 

124.                  GF: “We shouldn’t be paying anything”

 

125.                  KF: “Well that’s my question, you were acting as the National Public Officer working for National giving instructions to National, why doesn’t the solicitor send the bill directly to National?”

 

126.                  BB: “You can go crook at it as much as you like, that’s what we did, we had a mandate to do that at the last Council Meeting on the condition that National pay for it. National didn’t address it at Congress. I’ve sent the bill to National, and I’ve got a 7 day payment on it. How they distribute the funds I don’t care, so what we’ve just talked about then, in just those three ….is $40,000 odd dollars that belongs to this State which should be distributed amongst Sub-Branches. That’s what we’re talking about gentlemen. That’s where your monies going, $40,000 odd dollars (inaudible) National Congress? I’m not worried about Postcards. The solicitors -  right? $40,000 bloody dollars which I should be giving to St Mary’s, South West region, Ryde City, Northern Districts. I’ve got to manage this”

 

127.                  AH: “I understand this Barry, but if it had come out in the first place, and said we’ve got 153, then wrote down 20,000 of that had to go to Congress, so-and-so had to go to Saigon because they allowed you for it and 6000 went to solicitors which we haven’t got back. Now that’s a simple way of doing it and you’ve got 121,000.”

 

128.                  BA: “But if you’d listened to what I said, when we got the $71000 we had nothing in the bank. So as at today we have $40,000 in the bank unallocated. We’ve invoices for 10 grand to come in, costs we wont get back is 20,877.00 for Congress. That’s gone! Unless someone wants to raise it.”

 

129.                  BB: “The agreement was that money had to be raised by donations, if State Council wants to write that off that’s a matter for State Council, but right at this time that money is active as far as I’m concerned and has to be recovered, I’ve got no mandate to write that off”

 

130.                  CC: “I’d like to go back to our January meeting, because you made a statement that State got less than St Mary’s, now Paul Devine raised it in No 8 of the minutes, Paul Devine asked: this $82,250.00 is that only for Sub-Branches in the State. Barry Anderson replied ‘that is for the State and Sub-Branches, but of that $30,000.00 is for consumables, of that St Mary’s has $12,700.00.’ Paul’s next question was ‘So that 30,000 is for consumables, now how much of that 82,000 does State take out’ Barry Anderson replied ‘ I don’t know’ Paul said, ‘Well you have 30,000 for consumables, that leaves $50,250.00 which goes to seven Sub-Branches’ Barry Anderson replied, ‘No, this grant will supply 30,000 for consumables, (that’s been double counted) and travel, 18000 for salaries for an advocate, 15,000 salaries for an Admin Support Officer who ever we wish to hire or if we want to allocate it for a variation in agreement. $2500 for a photocopier, 2500 for internet costs, ……….Barry Billing said, ‘of the 32,000 that’s left, remember we had 82,000 to start, so we’re down to 32,000 St Mary’s can make a bid out of that, so it appears to me that the State Branch in essence, with admin expenses, advocate expenses, traveling expenses, office expenses your getting far more than any Sub-branch is getting”

 

131.                  BA: “solicitors cost has to go on top of that”

 

132.                  CC: “Out of BEST Funding?”

 

133.                  BB: “Yeah we have to transfer them over”

 

134.                  CC: “BEST Funding as I understand it doesn’t cover solicitors costs”

 

135.                  GF: “This is getting back to what you were saying” (To Ken Foster)

 

136.                  CC: “There’s 150 grand there and I don’t believe the Sub-Branches have got a fair crack of that 150, it seems to have gone on everything else except for what the purpose was”

 

137.                  BA: “Hang on, let’s break up all the other expenses back to the Sub-branches, if you want your full allocation, we’ll give you your full allocation, then we’ll take back expenses for running State.”

 

138.                  CC: “then we’ll have more control of our spending”

 

139.                  BB: “Wellll, State Council decided to do this, this has to go before State Council, get a motion going, you want to run it that way, run it that way”

 

140.                  CC: “ I’ll go back again, I’ve got the bank registries from 1 jan to 29 april, you  told us that there was $16,700 of BEST Funding, of that $5000 plus has been spent, so you’ve got $11,000…”

 

141.                  BA: “And $10,000 has been transferred to general funding,….”

 

142.                  CC: “Well how can that happen with BEST Funding?”

 

143.                  BB: “ We just get variations on our agreements to do that, otherwise we don’t exist..”

 

144.                  CC: “I think we’ll have to have a look at these variations, and I’ll be insisting that they be shown at the next State Council Meeting”

 

145.                  BB: “Go for your life”

 

146.                  CC:   “I just don’t think the Sub-Branches as a whole are getting a fair share of the total BEST funding for the work they do”

 

147.                  GF: “We’re not just talking about ST Mary’s here, we’re talking about all the Sub-Branches”

 

148.                  BA: “But bear in mind, State is paying all the bills which includes running State”

 

149.                  CC: “But you get $36,000 in donations, more than $36,000”

 

150.                  BB: I’d like to answer that question, we paid $24,300 for the newsletter right? I’ll just tell you where the problems comes into, in the newsletter right?”

 

151.                  BA: “Don’t go there!!”

 

152.                  BB: “ eh? You don’t want to go there?”

 

153.                  BA: “well, it’s up to the detriment of them”

 

154.                  BB: “You know, the newsletter that WE PAY FOR right? From the money that I personally go out and raise, because no other team comes out and raises it with me right? I don’t see anyone else bloody well getting behind me, I just keep getting people yelling at me and telling me to F****** off. The RSL they get three pages, and you get $1500 a month from the RSL, umm we get nothing from that, you get all merchandise, we gave you all merchandise from the State…”

 

155.                  CC: “We paid for the merchandise”

 

156.                  BA: “Before you came on board the State was doing merchandise……It was given to St Mary’s to run with some sort of donation commission coming back to State, it never happened.”

 

157.                  BB: “And we’ve never pushed it”

 

158.                  CC: “Well are you contributing to the buying of the merchandise?’

 

159.                  BB: We’re giving you the right”

 

160.                  CC: “ So you don’t want to take part in any of the process, but you want a cut out of it”

 

161.                  BA & BB “yeah”

 

162.                  BB: “This is an argument we can take up with State Council, this is what was agreed at State Council, now Chris you may disagree with all this, but we’re acting upon what the agreements were at State Council, not what Barry and I thought up in the back room last week ok? Now your raising issues you want to see, now we want to see a few things now, we want to see what happens there, if you want to change it please put it to State Council, and we’ll change it, we’ve never pushed it, because we felt we have been getting out there raising enough money, right, without imposing on any other Sub-Branch. Now the RSL which I believe gives you $1500 a month and you advertise on them and good luck to you, we don’t get a cut of that to pay for this in the magazine. Gary told me last time we spoke about it said well I’m the editor I do the magazine, what am I paying Gary now to do the editor?

 

163.                  GF: “They supply the venues for the State Meetings, free of charge, plus the BBQ Facilities…”

 

164.                  BB: “We pay for that we pay for the BBQ we get a bill every time”

 

165.                  CC: “You pay for the food you don’t pay for the facilities”

 

166.                  BA: “We don’t get an itemized bill for the food, so we wouldn’t have a clue how much St Mary’s pay”

 

167.                  BA: “What I want you all to look at is our present balance is 40 grand forget about what’s happened before, you can’t do anything about it, it’s gone.”

 

168.                  CM: “What Allen’s saying is right, Allen’s wrote down all the figures there, of the original 150,000 you end up with 120,000, there’s 40,000 in the bank, take that off, you’ve got 80,000 and you’ve got 22 out of 80 that’s the bottom line”

 

169.                  AH: “We’ve got about 25% of it”  CM: “of the bottom line”

 

170.                  LS: “Through the chair, sir can we get the cheques from this allocation, let’s do this right? If St Mary’s want to put in a Notice of Motion to change the system that their previous President fought for like bloody hell to get it, right? Now they want to change, at the moment I’m saying to the chair, allocate the cheques let’s get out of here, this is going to be nothing but a bun fight today”

 

171.                  RC: “I was around in the days and so was Lennie and a few of these other fellers, when the Sub-Branches used to be levied for the cost of things, and if you think this is a bun fight, you want to be at a meeting where the State is levying say $20,000 where St Mary’s have 260 members and it cost $3 a member, I’m telling you now you may have the better of two evils here, …….(inaudible through interruptions)

 

172.                  Ryde Member:  “I think we all should be thankful for State, they’re doing work for us aren’t they?”

 

173.                  BB: “Well thank you, (Barry apologies to Keith Woolfenden for earlier outburst, Keith also apologizes)

 

174.                  GF: (To Keith) “You’ve got PTSD, don’t worry about it”

 

175.                  AH: “I think it would have been a lot simpler if we had done this and let everybody know what was going on instead of coming out with all these figures, people of got them running around their bloody head, and their saying what the bloody hell’s going on here, you know?” It’s just a simple way of doing things”

 

176.                  BB:  “Allan I think what your saying brings over the point that we come here to allocate money and out of that we’ve got a number of issues that have been raised that have to be addressed somewhere else Chris, and that’s at State Council”

 

177.                  BA: “ You’ve got to look at all of our financials overall,  it’s no good just looking at BEST  without looking at incomes ………”

 

178.                  BB: “We’re going to write out cheques in a few moments for everyone, that’s your allocation, people need it, what I’d like to hear is – are we under-funding ourselves? In discussions with Chris and Gary on another issue we discussed where they believed allocations were coming from and bids were being made, we were talking about the welfare side of things, where I admitted quite openly and I’ll admit to everyone here, and Barry will too, I think Harry would, we did not see welfare as a major priority. Pensions, equipment and things like that were a major priority of BEST.  Obviously we all know and it was brought up to me that there was a change in structuring going on, so maybe we’re under funding ourselves, I’ve got Round 7 bids and they don’t address that issue at all. I need to talk to you all and this is what I really wanted to raise, because are you all satisfied with the allocation and we’ll deal with that at the State Council meeting and how we’re going to handle that. Are we all satisfied that is what is going on?”

 

179.                  CC: “ Are we satisfied on what’s happening now”

 

180.                  BB: “Are you satisfied that you are going to get cheques, and all the discussions we raised, as regards……..”

 

181.                  CC: “We will take the issues back to our Sub-Branch members before we get any cheques, we’ll take it back to them……”

 

182.                  BB: “Well don’t you want the cheques?”

 

183.                  CC: “Well we may not approve of the allocation and also I have some difficulty in some of the spending, and I’m certainly not going to be a part of ……..”

 

184.                  BB: “Their State Council issues”

 

185.                  CC: “No, no, we discussed this this morning, we do have some difficulties the way the spending is being used, you said it has been okayed by DVA, well that ok we’ll wait and see if that’s the case, we don’t require a cheque today, we talked about it earlier we believe the allocation is a bit unfair, understanding what you’ve said today, but certainly we’ll take it back to our management committee on Monday, we’ll probably call a meeting, and we’ve got our General Meeting next Wednesday, and we’ll take it to our General Meeting, we do have some concerns, I don’t think us three sitting here have got any right to say whether we accept the $9400 or not”

 

186.                  KF: “Chris to give your members the proper options, if you accept the cheques, and if your members refuse to accept that you return the cheques, rather than say you don’t want the cheques, somebody is going to come along and say, they wouldn’t give us the cheques…”

 

187.                  BB: “I don’t know what this problem is, there is an underlying accusation here, if you haven’t got the cheques by the 30th June YOU DON’T GET THE CHEQUE”

 

188.                  CC: “No hang on as I understand it the cheques has already gone to yourselves”

 

189.                  BB” We’ve got the money here and we can give it to the Sub-branches”

 

190.                  BA: “And we have to spend it by the 30th”

 

191.                  CC: “As I understand also, there is an extension on that, that’s what I heard from DVA, they don’t expect it because you got it on Tuesday….”

 

192.                  BB: “Where? Show me in writing, no, no, they’ve got it allocated, not to spend it there’s a difference be allocated and spending”

 

193.                  CC: “They’ve allocated it, you’ve got it”

 

194.                  BB: “And we’re writing off by the 30th June that’s what we’re going to do”

 

195.                  (everyone talking at once)

 

196.                  BA: “If you want BEST funding we’re issuing cheques today for BEST funding, after that it becomes general revenue.”

 

197.                  CC: “So be it, I mean….”

 

198.                  BA: “Then if you want a printer or whatever we say yeah ok maybe we can afford it maybe we can’t”

 

199.                  CC: “I have some difficulty with this because we discussed it this morning, Gary Myself and Allan, that two areas of BEST Funding and how it’s been done, secondly, it’s the actual allocation of the amount, we have some difficulties with that and we should take it to our members”

 

200.                  BA: “But are the members going to get the full story? I.e. out of 71,290 we got and that’s all we had to bank, …”

 

201.                  CC: “I’ll argue that there’s another $10,000 there somewhere which you passed over to the general ledger you told me..”

 

202.                  BA: “The books don’t lie, I’m telling you as at the day that money went in, we had $500 dollars plus 71,290 that’s it, you haven’t seen the financials yet so you really can’t go back to your Sub-Branch unless you go back and say we started off with 71,290, that’s all the State had which was the BEST funding. Out of that we had to pay Congress, Postcards, and then we’re doing our allocation of funds. That’s all your argument is, we got 71,290, that’s all we’ve got to play around with”

 

203.                  BB: “I’m having difficulty here, we’ve been before two audits, put everything in and there’s an accusation going on here that I don’t like”

 

204.                  AH: “That 40,000 that you got in the bank now, that’s part of the cheques you are going to give us?”

 

205.                  BA: “No, It will end up about $19,000 in the bank after I give you the cheques today”

 

206.                  AH: “Well I’m not going to go where the position is that ummm that we have to sort of be that State have to come up for money, if you come up with the money the way your doing it, I got no problems with it, it works out at $121.000 had to be distributed between everybody, out of that we are getting 24,900 which is nearly 23% of the money and I’ve go no problems with that”

 

207.                  CC: “Well I do I have problems, but that’s my own personal problems”

 

208.                  BB: “But you personally can’t run the show…..”

 

209.                  CC: “They can accept it, they can accept it, I can’t accept that decision”

 

210.                  BB: “Your making some pretty serious accusations here”

 

211.                  CC: “What accusations am I making?”

 

212.                  BB: “well your saying ‘I want to see, I want to do, we’ve presented all the accounts, we’ve presented the audited accounts, BEST Accounts are now going to audit with all these agreements and all that, I find myself very uncomfortable in what your saying”

 

213.                  CC: “I’m asking as a State Councillor for what I’m entitled to get and that is information”

 

214.                  BB: “And you’ll get the information, ……(Interruptions – unreadable)

 

215.                  (Gary and Allan talking in the background, Allan says ‘ what do you think’ Gary replies ‘I asked them over there and three out four said take the money and dispute it later)

 

216.                  BB: I’ll tell you where we are going with this, we’ve let it go, we’ve done nothing about it, and that’s your past President, now certain decisions were made by your past President at National Council that he and I that we would commit to State for $20,000, we’re the authority from State Council, that’s a St Mary’s one. We’ve asked for an audit on all equipment, I know of two computers of BEST Funding that have been given away to people, now do we really want to travel down this road and start digging into the past? Because I can tell you right now there’s going to be some interesting things come out of it, which I really don’t want to come out, because it is going to reflect on this State, I’ve let sleeping dogs lie, accept the auditors report, and if we want to do a complete reconstruction of how distribution of funds are done, how welfare is done, how allocations of funds done, let’s bring it up at State Council meeting in a very sensible way where we can approach it, because we’re only acting on the power and mandate of the State Council. You gentlemen who are Presidents in your Sub-Branch, can bring things and change it, it doesn’t worry us, we’re not here to resist you, we thought this was the best way to do it, obviously your feeling it’s not, your feeling State is dominating, that’s alright, there’s no problem with that, we can only work in the guidelines we’re given, that’s the point I’m trying to make, that’s the frustration that’s coming out of me and the frustration I’m hearing from Chris, it’s not working for you” 

 

217.                  AH: “Someone said to me we had a problem with our auditors, the last one we had, which was 30 something thousand dollars in donations or something we had, ……

 

218.                  BB: “By the way, State is not the “cash cow” around here in the fact we do have responsibilities, we pay all insurance, no more does the Sub-Branch pay that, the only thing I think you pay is Capitation fees and we endeavor, by donations to get that back to you.”

 

219.                  AH: “No what I was saying Barry, something came up that we had donations of 30 odd thousand dollars, now when I went up to my auditor, I’m not a CPA so I cant go through all these things, and he said at some time or other when the accounts were done before, these things weren’t taken into account, so he’s had to take these into account to balance the whole thing out. I said what? He said I just put all the figures into the machine and it came out. So I got no idea.”

 

220.                  BB: “We’re going to go traveling down the jacket road, we’re going to go traveling down the chair road, we’re going through the distribution of funds, you know, do we really want to go down this road?” “State President’s telephone bill is always a bone of contention, I’m the one that’s gone out and got this $3000 and by the way I’ve got another $2000 coming in to State, that means there’s 5 thousand per month coming into State, where’s the team to back me up? I do it on my own”

 

221.                  ( A discussion ensued regarding Sub-Branches looking at self-funding some of their operations. Ken Foster said their Sub-Branch was actively doing this. One Sub-Branch members said that if individual Sub-Branches want to go out wearing jackets on welfare then the sub-branch should fund it)

 

222.                  “CC: “The difficulty I have is if you read the BEST guidelines it says ‘assist veterans and their dependents in a range of welfare related activities, and we’ve had discussions with DVA ourselves and……………”

 

223.                  BB: “Who did you have discussions with, DVA is a very biiiiiiiig organisation”

 

224.                  CC: “well that’s right and we’ve had discussions with ……………”

 

225.                  BB: “Tammy Nadone,”

 

226.                  CC: “And some others, in regard to welfare facilities, and we provide welfare facilities…”

 

227.                  BB: “Define Welfare for me Chris”

 

228.                  CC: “Well welfare can be anything from a hospital …..”

 

229.                  BB: “No it can’t, have a look at the Act, it defines welfare. Your saying ‘we want because we do, if you believe for a moment that State or even a responsible Sub-Branch executive have a fiduciary duty to pay .30 cents a kilometer to go and hold someone in intensive care’s hand in a hospital is not welfare, there has to be an outcome, what is the outcome? That’s what the requirements were, Gary you were at the meeting, what did Tammy say when we signed off on it”

 

230.                  GF: “About what?”

 

231.                  BB: “For Round 7, what did she say about reporting infrastructure, next year?”

 

232.                  GF: “There would be audits right down to Sub-Branch level”

 

233.                  BB: “Which we didn’t do before, we’re going to be done over like a chook”

 

234.                  CC: “Well then if that is the case Barry, why did I have to supply you with the number of kilometers traveled by welfare officers, with the amount of visits they’ve made, if it’s got nothing to do with BEST funding at the moment, then why do you need it?”

 

235.                  BB: I’m not saying it’s got nothing to do with BEST funding, I’m saying you’ve got to justify to me what welfare is, I don’t want it, DVA want it. I don’t want the kilometers I’m not interested in that”

 

236.                  CC: “What your saying is, ….well that’s what you’ve asked us for”

 

237.                  BB: “I said, that if you believe welfare is going into hospitals walking into an intensive care unit uninvited………..”

 

238.                  AH: “Well I asked Tammy about welfare earnings and she said you can claim for traveling and that, for welfare and I said on what sort of rates, and she said the same as Government rates”

 

239.                  BB: ‘Who’s arguing about the rates?”

 

240.                  AH: “Your saying there has to be an outcome of when you go to visit someone”

 

241.                  BB: “I’m saying to you what I’m hearing, looks like we’re hearing two different things here, we’re talking to two different people. What their saying to me is welfare is an integral part of BEST funding, but it has to have an outcome, you can’t drive from point A to Westmead Hospital to go down and see if there is any diggers in there and there’s one in there in intensive care, just waking up after an operation, and you walk through the door and say ‘how you feeling mate, I’m from such and such” F****** off’ ….”

 

242.                  JF: “We don’t go into intensive care”

 

243.                  BB: “I know I’m using that as a rather over exaggerated point”

 

244.                  AH: “Do you get a result of it when you go there John?”

 

245.                  BB: “That’s what I need to know John, I’m familiar with that”

 

246.                  (A further discussion took place generally about welfare and what we are here for plus the new requirements as from the 1st July regarding welfare, we can’t do anything until the guidelines are issued by DVA)

 

247.                  GF: “Tammy told me on the phone the other day they are not looking at outcomes, I told her how our welfare works and she said it would be within the guidelines”

 

248.                  BB: “I’m going to ring Tammy up right now, it’s obvious we are getting two types of information” (Tries to ring)

 

249.                  GF: “It would be best if we got it in writing and sent it out to all the outposts”

 

250.                  CC: (to Gary on the side) “That’s me finished, I’m resigning, I’m not happy with that, we came here with a position and we bent over backwards”

 

251.                  CM: “Can I just ask one question before we go, with the balance that is in the account, if a sub-branch has got a desperate need they can ask for another …..”

 

252.                  BB: “that money is there for onward going of State and for contingencies, but, I’m asking you all to manage the money well, because if questions ever come around about the equipment and I was asked for the audit and things like that, we want to know where all the equipment is, and what’s written off, and things like that and there’s got to be outcomes coming up, when’s the next State Council Meeting?”

 

253.                  CM: “26th July”   (A further irrelevant conversation took place regarding the Constitution, we all know about the Constitution) (Barry explained that this meeting would not normally take place, it would be the BEST coordinating committee) (Barry explained that a whole new ball game will occur from 1st July and may well require Sub-Branches manage their own funds.)

 

(Ends)

Names of members present.

BB is Barry Billing NSW President.

BA is Barry Anderson who was the State Treasurer 

CM is Col Motbey the State Secretary

GF is Gary Fizzell St Marys President

AH is Allan Hills St Marys Treasurer

KF is Ken Foster the President of SWR sub-branch and the State treasurer 2005

JF is John Foeken the State welfare officer and member of St Marys

LS is Len Schultz President of Ryde sub-branch

RC is
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Zion
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« Reply #240 on: Monday03August2009 »

BRIAN MCKENZIE FORMERLY VVAA NATIONAL PRESIDENT SUPPORTS TATE AND MAD GALAHS

McKenzie led the VVAA into obscurity and insignificance. He is a fool of a man who succesfully left the VVAA more corrupt and fragmented than it had ever been. McKenzie still carries a lot of weight with the VVAA leadership and is a mate and supporter of Elworthy.

McKenzie's understanding of the Law is seriously flawed and like all barrack room lawyers he needs to desist from offering legal advice. That's what Solicitors are for.

Anyway this gem from McKenzie lets all readers know that the VVAA is squarely in the mad galah camp. McKenzie is a long time contributor to Petersens mad galah email list.


From: xxxxxxx
To: admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:48 PM
Subject: Fw: RANTINGS OF A LUNATIC **POSTS



From: Allen Petersen
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Cc: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:26 PM
Subject: RANTINGS OF A LUNATIC **POSTS


From: Brian McKenzie
To: 'Allen Petersen'
Sent: Monday, 3 August 2009 9:27 AM
Subject: Running scared eh!


Allen, If this is an attempt to alleviate any possible legal action by Don Tate or the publisher of his book then it falls well short of that objective. It doesn’t even go close to a retraction for the damage that may have resulted. The fact that the material has also been displayed anonymously on the AVM website will only add to this mans responsibilities and to those who drive the AVM website.

 

The nature of the material posted on the AVM website is clearly designed to deprive Don Tate of book sales and to discredit him. It could also be said that the reason that Don is receiving this special attention is the fact that he is speaking the truth and those he implicates in this mess are keen to starve him and his book of any credibility. Why would that be? Why hasn’t Bob Enright and Allan Stanton who also have made the same claims received any special attention?

 

The fact that other veterans not directly connected to Don Tate are starting to validate his account of events must be a concern to all those involved. I suggest those involved might like to seek legal advice real quick, identify themselves and provide a sincere retraction rather than band-aid treatment while running a little scared. Some people have lowered the “scruples” bar in the veteran community by actively participating in such activities.

 

Go fly a kite with your grandchildren or do something positive and worthwhile for the veteran community by helping our many colleagues and their families who are hurting.

I congratulate the person responsible for identifying himself and I hope he enjoys his time with Don should he chose to do so.       

Regards, Brian
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« Reply #239 on: Saturday01August2009 »

William,

The issues you've raised are real, but they are also issues that the major ESOs (not just the RSL either) have been pursuing for years.  Increase to the War Service loan is a priority issue for every ESO, as the current level is unchanged for over 30 years.  It's only at the AAT that lawyers become involved in claims, and while yes, DVA can throw massive resources at fighting a claim, most advocates would tell you that it is highly unlikely that a claim with genuine merit will be denied. 

We could argue the "genuine merit" issue forever because it's obviously a subjective measure.  However you'd be amazed at the success rate of the baggy-arse advocates going toe-to-toe with high-prices lawyers.  Most of the land-mark precedents have been achieve by the barefoot advocates.

Almost without exception, those of us who have been involved in the ex-Service community for years have continually pushed for a more collegiate approach to the resolution of claims and want to do away with the confrontational methodology which currently applies.  While I hold no brief to either attack or defend the R&SL, neither of these issues is specific to the R&SL.
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« Reply #238 on: Saturday01August2009 »


Invite him to Queensland where it is cleaner and the air is fresher!
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William
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« Reply #237 on: Saturday01August2009 »

Action, can not agree with your last sentence that the R&SL, and for that matter any ESO is relevant until they make an honest and committed approach to clearing up
the disparity between a claimant's legal representation and the defence's massive legal avenues paid for by tax payer's money. This has never been fair but continially goe's on unchallenged by those who supposedly represent us in the "fair go" stakes. It makes sense though when one ways up the advantages to the enemy when the ESO's are trained by them to bring out the egotism within to make them believe they can go "head to head" with a QC or Barrister. Why should a Veteran have to pay $10,000 that he doesn't have in court costs to the otherside when he has to represent himself because of lack of finances and makes one mistake and looses.

Another is that one has an entitlement to a War Service Home Loan but it remains only an entitlement unless one takes up the loan with Westpac and not the establishment one has been with all their working life.

These are just some of the issue's I personally would prefer the ESO's to concentrate on instead of the "waste of time" bullshit circulating the net these days!










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« Reply #236 on: Friday31July2009 »

Most of our generation of veterans insist that they should be able to deliver their own grassroots opinion through their ESO.  I agree with this and always have.  Unfortunately, not everyone's as clever or well-informed as you, dear reader, so from time to time some pretty stupid proposals get put forward.  Not everyone's as honest as you either, so the occasional rogue(s) will be doing things for their own benefit. 

The price that the ESO pays for the autonomy of sub branches is that by the time it learns of the fraud or mismanagement it's too damned late.  In the first instance national has to support the state branch and the state branch similarly supports the democratically elected sub branch executive until the fraud or mismanagement is identified.  It often takes a long time to get to the facts and all too often it comes down to the word of one disgruntled member against the word of another disgruntled member.  Good luck sorting that out!  I wonder what gruntled means, because you obviously have to be gruntled before you can be disgruntled.  But I digress ... Huh

Luckily stupid proposals go through the State and National filters and generally get thrown out before they become an embarrassment.

On the other hand, the more fragile the chain of accountability of the national leadership to the ordinary members, the more likely it is that the national leadership will be doing and saying things that the ordinary members don't agree with.  Or, more likely, something that the ordinary members don't understand.

How to resolve the problem?  Not sure, because I think we have to accept the autonomy of sub branches but strengthen the national accountability mechanisms.  We also have to accept that there's not a lot of point putting a national president to the pillory about a problem in a sub branch.  Probably better to start questions at the state branch level.   

Controls which stop the national executive from putting foward their personal opinion as the organisational opinion are a must and we have to stop them getting the organisation involved in matters which have nothing to do with the organisation.  Cast your mind back to Digger James' involvement in the abortion issue for an example.

No matter what anyone says, the RSL will continue to be a significant voice in ESO issues. But is it too late to reform the RSL?  Only time will tell, but I see the involvement of honest, capable brokers such as Rod Baine and Kel Ryan as a step in the right direction, and hopefully at some time in the future, a demonstration that you don't have to have been a general officer to be the national president of that organisation.
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« Reply #235 on: Friday31July2009 »

AVM are providing a forum where truth and honour can be restored to the veteran community, where individuals can provide evidence of  misuse of funds or authority, incompetence, or corrupt and criminal like activity perpetrated by members and office bearers of ESOs. 
 
At AVM individuals can point out ESO indiscretions without fear of reprisal.

 
AVM is not a venue to attack individuals or oganisations simply because they are not liked.  It is also not a place for unsubstantiated and rash generalisations.
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« Reply #234 on: Friday31July2009 »

I am on Allen Petersens email list not because I asked to go on it but because he placed me on it without asking, just like most people on his email list. I am happy to be on it because I can keep tabs on just what the mad galahs are up to. Yesterday Allen Petersen sent out the email I have enclosed from Bob Elworthy, who I understand is the Victorian VVAA State President. For a VVAA leader this bloke is very silly, naive and immature.
 
You will see he has offered various challenges to whom he thinks are the AVM owners and contributors. He has no proof who owns AVM just like the rest of us don't. How silly is he with his challenge. Little boy stuff, teeny bopper stuff. His email once again shows he is a mad galah supporter and apologist while no other ESO leader in the country is a mad galah member/supporter. In fact many many ESOs have made a stand against the mgs.This shows Elworthy is a dill.
 
AVM openly says this is a whistle blowing website. My real name is unknown to you in here just like so most other forum members who use pseudonyms.
 
Now when you read Elworthys challenge ask yourself these questions.
 
The Police in all states understand the great value of and use whistle blowing websites and phone lines. Do those police openly name the police officers at the other end and do they openly publish the names of their whistle blowers?
 
Social security also has a whistle blowing web presence and phone line. Do they also reveal the names of their officers and informants?
 
The various crime commissions around the country have the same facilities------do they breech their informants privacy and reveal the names of those who are at the end of their reporting networks?
 
On and on the list grows. Yet stupid Elworthy expects AVM to reveal the name of its owners and informants.
 
I say good on AVM for the work they do and more strength to them. I will continue to pass them information because they have proven I can trust them and proven they report accurately.
 
 
From: Allen Petersen
Date: 30/07/2009 3:40:32 PM
Subject: TAKE UP THE OFFER..
 
From: bob elworthy
To: briggsy1@iprimus.com.au
Cc: petersaj@bigpond.net.au
Sent: Thursday, 30 July 2009 1:01 PM
Subject: SUBJECT:  OFFER


Briggsy, Allen.

 

My response through you to Don Tate and accompanying comments from you et al  took no time at all to get to the anonymous mud slingers (not all that anonymous actually) from up north. So not surprising to see me and all VVAA Vic. allied with and supportive of Don’s roast and a series of old non-events dredged up to give some substance to their latest offerings; and you two are not exactly flavour of the month either! As with my previous comments, this will also get back, so I would like to make the following unconditional offer:

 

To the faceless individuals who peddle nonsense, and do not have the courage to identify themselves I make you the following offer:

 

I will personally pay for the author of the most recent dribble about me and VVAA Victoria, or his agent,  to fly to Victoria.

I will personally pay for accommodation,  and I will personally arrange meetings for you with law enforcement officers, Consumer Affairs Victoria and anybody else you want so that you can put your case. I will also arrange for those that you have attacked to meet with you so that you can confront them with their wrong doings.

 

There is one catch. You will have to bring with you all the evidence that you, xxxxxx name deleted and any others purport to have about whatever it is that irks you, otherwise how are you going to prove all of the accusations that have been made about people here in Victoria? 

 

Can’t be fairer than that; an all expenses paid visit to Victoria so that you can set the record straight. If nobody from the north wants to come, why not have one of your Victorian associates who peddles information to you come along instead?

 

There is one other minor issue; you will have to identify yourself so that I can do the bookings for you. Hope that won’t be

a problem.

 

Take up the offer, that way you will be able to prove to all who read (and actually believe?) your stuff that you have the goods. It’s a win win for you isn’t it? Prove the veracity of your claims and the corrupt practices in Victoria, all at my expense. If you decline the offer, what will these same readers think then?

 

One small condition on the trip, a visit with my lawyers. Just a formality you understand.

 

Bob Elworthy

30/07/2009
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Ethelred
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« Reply #233 on: Thursday30July2009 »

We need to deal in facts as Fergus has stated. There is no room for emotional nonsense and acting like 16 year old school boys in anything we say and do. Facts facts facts. Leave all the emotional bullshit and stupidity for the mad galahs.

RSL Care administers, runs, operates and finances Sunset Lodge in conjunction with the QCWA. Funding comes from the RSL, Government grants, QCWA, bequests and returns on residential tenancies to name some resources. Because Government money is involved the RSL Care charter demands that places are made available to the general community and not just ex Service members.

The local RSL sub branch at Emu Park has NOTHING to do with the operation of this facility. Administratively it is operated on the ground and is ultimately responsible to RSL Care in Brisbane, an agency of the Qld RSL State Branch. Therefore the local sub branch at Emu Park cannot authorise the spending of any monies at Sunset Lodge.

The RSL injects members money into all their RSL Care facilities. Therefore all Queensland members have a direct interest in where money is spent at Sunset Lodge and all other Care facilities. The trouble as usual with the RSL is passage of information and I would bet my left testicle that most RSL Qld members have no idea money has been or may be donated for a car park at the local golf club, which by the way is also entitled to Government sports grants.

RSL Care in the Rockhampton Office covers the coastal area where Sunset Lodge is located and is terribly short of funds, in particular funds to transport ill and frail ex Service members around the area because of the limit of 40 kms placed on travel. 40 kms in regional areas is a nothing and one can do that in a one way trip from Emu Park to Rockhampton. RSL Care volunteer workers are paying for care trips from their own pockets.

So where is the justification for spending RSL money on a golf club car park when ex Service members are going without?

Apart from any financial considerations here there is a matter of perceptions. There is a matter of culture and principle. On top of this the RSL name is emblazoned all over RSL Care facilities The RSL leaderships and many members, comfortable in their lounges, just don't get it. They bury their heads in the sand and hope all these issues can remain hidden and hope they will just go away. They won't and they will not.

Some accurate information on RSL Care follows.

RSL Care- Community Services

RSL Care is a leading Queensland not-for-profit provider of community services and residential aged care for aged and incapacitated ex-service men and women, their children and other members of the community; it seeks to allow ex-service men and women to live in affordable accommodation within their local area.

RSL Care currently provides aged care at over 25 locations and community care serviced across eight regions throughout Queensland and in the Northern Rivers District of New South Wales.

Visit www.rslcare.com.au for more information.


http://www.rslcare.com.au/

RSL Care Corporate Services
301 Wickham Street, Fortitude Valley QLD 4006

Tel: (07) 3251 6200
Fax: (07) 3252 5455
Freecall: 1800 888 775

New Retirement Village Sales: 1300 558 648
RSL HomeCare: 1300 076 566

RSL Care grew out of a commitment of the RSL Queensland to ‘care for our mates’, particularly those in need.

Donations and Bequests have played a huge part of RSL Care’s history since 1936, when philanthropist and prominent businessman, George Marchant, kindly donated a large residence – ‘Kingshome’ in suburban Brisbane for 60 burnt out and unemployable diggers.

The need for aged care continues to grow with thousands of ageing Australians looking to RSL Care for their aged care and retirement lifestyle options. RSL Care is ready to answer these needs and invites people who understand the importance of well managed aged care communities to support our Donations and Bequests Program.


RSL Care is one of Australia's most respected, not-for-profit providers of HomeCare, retirement living and residential care to the ex-service and general community.

From simple beginnings in 1936, RSL Care now provides a range of HomeCare services to more than 22,000 people, and accommodates more than 4,500 people in 27 retirement communities, in Queensland and New South Wales.


Capricorn Coast welcomes new Retirement Community

Sunset Ridge Retirement Community at Zilzie, Emu Park, a joint initiative with RSL Care and the QCWA,
was officially opened today by Mrs Marian Mudra, State President, Queensland Country Women’s
Association (QCWA) and Doug Formby, State President, RSL QLD Branch. Almost 100 people were in
attendance with a Catafalque Guard from the 31-42 Royal Queensland Regiment (RQR) in Rockhampton
included in the formal proceedings.

Located approximately 48km East of Rockhampton, Sunset Ridge Retirement Community will significantly
increase the availability of aged care on the Capricorn Coast. The $45m development is master-planned to
include 100 independent living villas, resort style social facilities and a 120 bed residential aged care
complex accommodating low, high and secure dementia care. The new facility has also provided a
number of new jobs to the local and surrounding communities with some job opportunities still available.
“This new facility will allow RSL Care to provide a more comprehensive range of aged care services to the
community in addition to RSL Care HomeCare which is already available” said Ross Smith, Chief
Executive Officer, RSL Care.

Early next year, Sunset Ridge will also offer RSL Care Premium, an extra services option for those who
can afford a little extra luxury. RSL Care Premium provides more choice in enhanced accommodation,
dining and personal services, with the same quality care for which RSL Care is renowned.

“This state of the art building and equipment will facilitate a high standard of individualised resident care”
said Mr Smith.

Stage One of independent living at Sunset Ridge will include 25 villas and is expected to be ready for
resident occupancy early 2009. The community facilities will also be constructed in Stage One.
Independent living villas include two bedroom and two bedroom plus study, environmentally friendly
designs with independence, privacy, security and value for money in mind. The resort style facilities
include a solar heated pool and spa, shaded barbeque area, auditorium, billiards room, library and
hairdresser.

The independent living villa sales launch will be held this Wednesday 3rd December at the Sunset Ridge
community club between 10am-12noon. For more information, please contact Jenny Horn on (07) 4925
4011.

At home assistance from RSL HomeCare will also be available to residents living independently at Sunset
Ridge, as well as to the wider community. For further information about RSL Care HomeCare please
phone 1300 796 111.

For more information about Sunset Ridge Retirement Community or employment opportunities,
please call 1800 669 146 or visit www.rslcare.com.au

RSL Care is one of Australia’s most respected not-for-profit providers of HomeCare, retirement living and
residential care to the ex-service and general community. From simple beginnings in 1936, RSL Care now
provides a range of HomeCare services to more than 22,000 people and accommodates over 4,500
people in 26 retirement communities in Queensland and New South Wales.

RSL Care remains committed to aged care

RSL Care remains committed to aged care with a 120 bed residential care facility opening next
week in Zilzie, Emu Park; a 60 bed residential care facility opening in Thornlands in December;
and further residential care developments underway in Cairns and Ipswich.

Contradictory to recent publicity, RSL Care will be active in the next Aged Care Approvals Round
(ACAR) and will seek extensions to its community care and residential care programs in
Queensland and NSW.

Our concerns with the current Government funding model are that it does not allow for the cost of a
care facility that caters solely for high care needs. Therefore, all of our new developments need to
provide a combination of high and low care and Extra Services to even approach viability.

With a return on investment of around 1%, RSL Care provides services as a community provider,
there really isn’t a valid financial model and this has seen many providers withdraw from the sector.

This is not such a huge problem now but it’s a gigantic issue looming for the community and
Governments.

RSL Care is a leading not-for-profit provider of HomeCare, residential care and retirement living
and have recently received a Bronze Award for Business Excellence in the 2008 Australian
Business Excellence Awards.

RSL Care is one of Australia’s most respected not-for-profit providers of retirement living and
residential care, accommodating more than 4,500 people in 26 retirement communities throughout
Queensland and New South Wales. RSL Care recently received a Bronze Award in the 2008
Australian Business Excellence Awards, after being assessed in a rigorous evaluation process
against seven Business Excellence Framework categories including Leadership; Strategy and
Planning; Information and Knowledge; People; Customer and Market Focus; Process Innovation
and Improvement; and Success and Sustainability.
« Last Edit: Thursday30July2009 by Cassius » Logged
Fergus
Guest
« Reply #232 on: Wednesday29July2009 »

Jeeeez Bob
 
Bob Buick, wrote the following in relation to Cassius's post about an RSL donation to a Golf Club.
 
"From: Bob Buick
To: AVM
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 9:38 PM
Subject: Worst than the Poms in the 1950s
This is my comment to the post below;
 
It seems that the author does not understand the RSL structure. If a sub-branch, or in the case Sunset Ridge, independently vote to donate monies to a cause it is the matter for that group. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Sate Committee of the National Executive or any other whinging veteran. Wake up and get a life.
 
Bob Buick"


We respect your contribution to veteran matters and we respect you for what you are, and what you have done. In this instance your comments show a lack of understanding of what this subject is all about.
 
The point is, there are many needy causes relating to the well being and welfare of veterans that Sunset Ridge should be considering before spending RSL money on Golf Club car parks. For instance in the Rockhampton area there is not enough money to look after transport requirements for frail and aged veterans. You flippantly say "Get a life" the purpose of the RSL is to give our old and ailing veterans a life, not provide golfing facilities for the elite -  or don't you get it?

Aye

Fergus
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Zion
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« Reply #231 on: Wednesday29July2009 »

FROM AVM

Sunset Ridge http://www.emuparkonline.com.au/Clubs/Club_55-sunset-ridge/club-55.html is a combined RSL and QCWA aged care complex located at Emu Park not far from Rockhampton. If this report is true we ask why is the RSL spending members money on a golf club?



From: xxxx
To: admin
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 4:54 PM
Subject: Fw: RSL Care


Subject: RSL Care


I have it on good advice that Sunset Ridge (i.e. RSL Care) has donated
$5000 to the Emu Park Golf Club towards the construction of their new
car park.

I would have thought that this sort of money could be better spent helping
veterans to travel to doctors' etc. appointments.

xxxx
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William
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« Reply #230 on: Tuesday28July2009 »

looks as though they have the same problem in England as they do here.


From a British soldier in Iraq.

Tommy (with apologies to Kipling)
 
               Written by Patrick Campbell 
 
They flew me 'ome from Baghdad with a bullet in me chest.
Cos they've closed the army 'ospitals, I'm in the NHS.
The nurse, she ain't no Britisher an' so she ain't impressed.
It's like I'm some street corner thug who's come off second best.
Yes, it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "You're not welcome 'ere".
But when Saddam was collar'd, they was quick enough to cheer.

They're proud when Tommy Atkins 'olds the thin red line out there,
But now he's wounded back at 'ome, he has to wait for care.
Some stranger in the next bed sez, "Don't you feel no shame?
You kill my Muslim brothers!" So it's me not 'im to blame!
An' then the cleaner ups an' sez "Who are you fightin' for?
It ain't for Queen and country 'cos it's Bush's bloody war!"
It's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, what's that smell?"
But it's "God go with you, Tommy," when they fly us out to 'ell.
O then we're just like 'eroes from the army's glorious past.
Yes, it's "God go with you, Tommy," when the trip might be your last.
They pays us skivvy wages, never mind we're sitting ducks,
When clerks what's pushing pens at 'ome don't know their flippin' luck.
"Ah, yes" sez they "but think of all the travel to be 'ad."
Pull the other one. Does Cooks do 'olidays in Baghdad?
It's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, know your place,"
But it's "Tommy, take the front seat," when there's terrorists to chase.
An' the town is full of maniacs who'd like you dead toot sweet.
Yes, it's "Thank you, Mr Atkins," when they find you in the street.
There's s'pposed to be a covynant to treat us fair an' square
But I 'ad to buy me army boots, an' me combats is threadbare.
An' 'alf the bloody 'elicopters can't get into the air,
An' me pistol jammed when snipers fired. That's why I'm laid up 'ere.
Yes, it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, "We 'ave to watch the pence";
Bold as brass the P.M. sez, "We spare them no expense.
"But I'll tell you when they do us proud an' pull out all the stops,
It's when Tommy lands at Lyneham in a bloomin' wooden box!
« Last Edit: Wednesday29July2009 by Cassius » Logged
Fergus Fairfax
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« Reply #229 on: Tuesday28July2009 »

Dear oh dear,
Is that arrogant fool Elworthy still at it. I thought he would have been chucked out ages ago as Vic Pres. He is a pompous little prick who wants to run the whole national show and who is never wrong.

This could interest readers. It was sent to me ages ago and it seems nothing has changed in Vic.

From:
To:
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 5:30 PM
Subject:


I know there has been a giant shit-fight at VVAA Ballarat but I understand it was over the VVAA getting into bed with APPVA through Elworthy and Copeland.
 
No doubt B.McKenzie was using his influence to bring the union about.
 
I gather the holy alliance is a gesture engineered by B.McK through his stooges to take a shot at the VVF.
 
Elworthy is so far up himself that he can not see that, in reality, B.McKenzie is pulling his strings.
 
I understand that a past President of Ballarat resigned as a result of the alliance, or MOU as it is known.
« Last Edit: Tuesday28July2009 by Shadow » Logged
Zion
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« Reply #228 on: Monday27July2009 »

FROM AVM
 
The Victorian VVAA has lurched from one problem to another under the inept and stupid Presidency of Bob Elworthy. There was a huge problem with a VVAA member operating a computing business from a backroom in a Vic VVAA sub branch and Elworthy pretended all was ok. Elworthy hates some officials in the NSW VVAA and thus conflict reigns paramount. Geoff Trevor Hunt, formerly of the Vic VVAA, left the State under a cloud for Western Australia to become the VVAA National Secretary after funds went missing from the RAASC Association in Victoria of which he was a member. Elworthy is a quite silly, immature man who thinks he is a big shot.
 
There are many matters of corruption, fraud and incompetence which the VVAA nationally has tried to hide over the years but here we are talking about Elworthys Victorian Branch. Elworthy, it is said, retired a Major, and one would think a retired Officer would have more brains, decency and common sense than Elworthy displays. To call him " ONE of the most respected impartial ANZAC Community ESO Executives" as Corse does below is arrant nonsense. Elworthy has been at the centre of much disunity and cross ESO infighting. Elworthy has consistently supported the mad galahs via Petersens email list. He would be the only ESO leader in the country to do so.
 
Therefore it is little wonder that Bob Elworthy now aligns himself and the Victorian VVAA with the vileness and sickness of Tate. Tate has a morbid fascination with paedophilia and when anybody challenges him or corrects him he immediately brands those persons as paedophiles or as people who associate with paedophiles. Elworthys Victorian VVAA is now doing the same thing. Birds of a feather do indeed flock together. Any port in a storm as they say.

Elworthy has proven himself a pathological liar, another reason he fits in well with Tate.
 
The following was sent to AVM today and we reproduce it for you. We have removed names to protect the innocent.
 
Bob Elworthy, you are a disgrace to all decent, civilised Officers and you are a disgrace to the memory of Phil Thompson.
 
Read on here.
 
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:06 PM
Subject: Fw: MAINTAIN THE RAGE!
 

From: Allen Petersen
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: MAINTAIN THE RAGE!
 

From: Barry Corse
To: 'Donald Tate'
Cc: 'Bob Elworthy' ; 'Jim Wiltshire' ; 'Allen Petersen' ; 'Bernie' ; 'Briggsy'
Sent: Monday, 27 July 2009 3:35 PM
Subject: ONE of the most respected impartial ANZAC Community Executives
 

Let the Record show, Don you have been acknowledged by ONE of the most respected impartial ANZAC Community ESO Executives, Bob Elworthy, he speaks and acts for those he represents without fear or favour and without the elitist show of too many others who by their silence as eso executives stand perceived as aligning themselves with the gutless maggots you have identified vide their perceived common criminal shadowy links. One of the documents you have not seen in the AWM, purportedly asserts that a perceived so called great Vietnam leader asked a family friend to NOT initiate criminal and civil action against some known self anointed secretive maggots because of their former service status. “not in the interests of the service”. That fellow ANZAC is deeply ashamed that he agreed to that disgraceful criminal gutless conspiracy accessory act for the good of the officer corps. However, he did agree to at least emplacing that corrected history for ANZAC posterity. When and if needed. 
 
Barry
 
PS. You and I are identified by some as prickly cantankerous unorthodox ANZACS and you and I have differed in process. The majority of the ANZAC Community endorse your demand and entitlement for the truth and have contempt for those gutless shadowy maggots who are a very small minority, the maggots who have called you an ANZAC liar were never capable of climbing the emotional mountains you have.
 
 
 
From: bob elworthy
 
Date: 27/07/2009 11:14:26 AM
 
To: 'Jim Wiltshire' Cc: 'Donald Tate'
 
Subject: Re A Message for xxxxxx
 
Bob Elworthy here, Now that’s what I call a fair whack! Pity is the moron isn’t intelligent enough to know that he has just been dissected!
 
I have had several run-ins with xxxxxxxx and his minions, the most recent after I came out in support of the investigation into the 2nd D&E platoon. Funny thing is I can never seem to get onto his site to offer a different point of view to his vomit-funny that! But, he has been very quiet in regards to slagging me after he was contacted by my legal firm!
 

Ever shall it be thus that those who huff and puff the most, invariably have the least to say and will eventually run out of breath, withdraw into their pitiful life and wither. And to think that once they were regarded as mates and brothers in arms to be trusted! They are now exposed for eternity as traitors to the memory of every digger who gave all and to those who have since succumbed.
 
Maintain the rage.
 
From: Donald Tate
 
To: Allen Petersen ; tjimw1@iprimus.com.au ; Bernie
Cc: studiomartinek@bigpond.com ; eckap@hotmail.com ; Barry Corse
Sent: Monday, 27 July 2009 7:01 AM
Subject: A Message for xxxxxxxxxxx
 
A message for xxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
You're a dickhead mate, pure and simple. I know you're one of those gutless cowards who's been attacking me and others for years- a self-appointed expert who knows diddly about any of the matters you write about. The fact that you subscribe to a web site run by anonymous 'veterans' who don't dare show their face, who won't tell us about their own service, and of which one of the principals enjoys sticking his fingers in little boys' backsides says plenty about you as a 'man'. Most real men steer clear of anyone with any leanings towards little boys. Not you xxxx. You obviously enjoy the company. Here's a revelation for you- if you lie down with dogs xxxxx, you'll get up with fleas, and I suspect you're scratching yourself stupid about now.
 
Just for your benefit, I'll say it again- all my service has been documented by those I fought alongside. That's right- from 4RAR, through the 2nd D&E Platoon, and into 9 RAR. All validated- by fellow grunts, by section-commanders, a platoon commander, and a Captain who won a Military Medal. Every aspect of my service- right up to the very afternoon I ran into a Viet Cong ambush in support of a whole section that had been caught in the cross-fire. That's right- wounded IN ACTION!
 
That's "ACTION" xxxxxx- not dixie-bashing. Not filling jerry cans. That was in the INFANTRY xxxxxxxxx, and seven and a half months into my tour. No falling over logs or getting 'sick' or cutting myself shaving- but real, genuine ACTIVE SERVICE, you dead-shit. And hospitalised for more than two years afterwards.
 
Seven and a half months as a rifleman xxxxxxx- and carrying the M60 from time to time, as well (as verified in my films); ask some respected veterans who've actually watched the films and didn't run screaming from the room and book themselves into PTSD ward afterwards!
 
I suspect xxxxx, that those who attack me- like you- have a very dodgy service history yourself. What exactly did you do in the war, might I ask? Get shot? Put your life on the line? I don't think so- not given the sort of man you are now. A piss-ant. Like your paedophile mates at the AVM web site. Blokes who even wear medals they're not entitled to- military 'experts' who whack on an extra medal and who have to hand them back when they're exposed. A 'band of brothers' all right- murderers, frauds, and cowards who don't reveal themselves to the light of day.
 
Yes- you're in good company xxxxxx.
 
Tell me, I've been in the ACT a few times. Why didn't you confront me man to man, instead of hiding behind emails? Explain that to the veteran world! Instead of this mud-slinging by email, why didn't you personally introduce yourself to me at one of the library sessions?
 
I know why xxxxx- because you're half a man. One of thos veterans hiding inside veterans organisations to disguise the fact that you're all fluff. A little man with lots to prove, apparently, still trying to be a big man. Still trying to impress. What are you after- one of those OAM's as well?
 
Before my book was published, the publishers and their legal team (and barrister) asked for, and received, all the validating documentation they needed to support my book. They don't publish unless they get it, dickhead.
 
But you wouldn't know that, would you? Ever written a book yourself? I don't think so- it's half the problem here. Too many petty little men jealous that I was able to, and they couldn't. Even those who could write jealous of my relative success. Just a Private too, the upstart!
 
Keep your opinions to yourself, dickwit. Blokes like you are EXACTLY the reason why I have placed all these matters before the relevant authorities. The more I'm attacked by shadowmen like you, the more resolved I am to bring you and your type down.
 
You and your sleazebag mates have done a lot of damage- and hurt many veterans. Most prefer to walk away. Not me, prick. I'll take you and your type on anywhere, any day.
 
What surprises me most, is that good men actually take you and your gutless mates seriously. I'm real glad I took a movie camera with me to the war.
 
Don Tate
author, "The War Within" 
"...a brutally honest insight into a life less fortunate....'A Fortunate Life' on steroids....takes the reader on a dark and shocking journey...."                                                   -  The Courier-Mail, Brisbane
« Last Edit: Monday27July2009 by Cassius » Logged

Fergus
Guest
« Reply #227 on: Sunday26July2009 »

Jeeeez Wada

All I/we want is for you to get on with your information about misdeeds in the RSL.  Just write them down in one hit, don’t unfold them.  We don’t want to know about things that may happen in the future, we want to know what evidence you have of problems from yesterday backwards.

Please also describe my acts of plagiarism as once again you make a general statement without providing definitive evidence of the aggrieved original author.

As requested, will be very happy to “put up” and stop covering up my shortfalls, but first you must tell me what they are.  Also please advise as to the direction of my ethics, if, as you say they are misguided.

You have once again written a little piece full of generalised accusations, please be specific. 

Unless you have something of substance to say don’t waste space on AVM, we don’t want “angry ants” we want mature and reasoned information that addresses specific subjects.

Aye

Fergus

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Zion
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« Reply #226 on: Sunday26July2009 »

Wada it's clearly stated that Fergus is moderator of this Forum. Thus he is entitled to steer the posts in the right direction.

I'll say it one more time. This is the only chance any of you will ever have to blow the whistle on all ESO problems. You will never get another chance. Reason? Nobody else will spend the time, money and work setting up anonymous systems such as AVM for you to spill the beans and speak openly with total anonymity. I'll say it one more time. If you all use total anonymity in here you cannot be touched. Not even we know who totally anonymous members are. Your call.

So, bearing all this in mind we will leave this thread here for two more weeks. If by that time nobody has used this thread as it is designed to be used it will be deleted. We have no intention of wasting our time. We have plenty of other work to do.

Over to you.
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Fergus
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« Reply #225 on: Sunday26July2009 »

Come on Wada
 
You make all kinds of rash generalisations, emotional accusations and cliche`s against nobody in particular.  How about some specifics to back up your generalisations.
 
You said: "Will now say that I am all done with the yelling and screaming and will now over the coming weeks inform the members of the crap that's happening in the Far Northern District"
 
We don't want to hear as to how you didn't get you way in any particular matter we want details of malpractice, dishonesty, conspiracy and corruption or unconstitutional behaviour either of individuals or groups (whereby it becomes a conspiracy). - otherwise forget it

The Mad Galahs are all full of piss, wind and sweeping statements let's have none of that.
 
No more innuendo lets have some provable facts.
 
Aye

Fergus
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Zion
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« Reply #224 on: Friday24July2009 »

Well a lazy day at home today so I have time to reply early.

Wada AVM has no serious argument with any of the observations and criticisms you have made of the RSL. The RSL is corrupt, is an old boys club, is set up for the power hungry, the greedy and the incompetent. There is no doubt about this. We will have comments to pass on other ESOs so readers don’t think we are picking on the RSL.

At the end of this post you will find an attachment on The RSL Between The Wars. We commend it’s substance to you. It’s a very enlightening read.

Let’s get rid of the blinkers, let’s face the truth and let’s speak the truth.

It’s inherent in all of us just about to want to believe the best of our community and people. However this wanting to believe the best and refusing to face the facts is a folly and is not only not in our interests, is not only not in the interests of the Armed Forces, but is not in the best interests of the RSL itself. Far too many ordinary members refuse to ask the hard questions and demand accurate, honest answers of the RSL leadership. Far too many ordinary members are lazy and far too many fail to attend meetings. Far too many are in the RSL for what they can get from it rather than what they can give to it. Far too many of the leaderships are dishonest and inept, corrupt and self centred, more interested in the cocktail circuit than the entitlement circuit and far too many leaders have no experience of War.

Mention has been made of the 90 day wonders, some of whom went on to become great professional Soldiers. But most 90 day wonders know nothing about Military service and life. It goes further than this with the RSL leaderships being inundated by weekend warriors, who also do not understand Military life and War. These people do not understand Regimental life and all the issues involved as a result of service in war and Peace.

Personally I believe the RSL is beyond redemption and will just shrivel away into oblivion. I have heard many many people say that to change the RSL one must fight from the inside. This to me is in error and displays a blatant misunderstanding of how the cards are stacked, how the deck is arranged in the RSL. The power structures in the RSL preclude any change from the inside. It has been tried by many many decent, intelligent and dedicated men and women, and the status quo remains.

For those who have hope that the RSL can change, I say to you there is one way only that this will happen, and that way is by pressure applied in the Court of Public Opinion. Hence this website and Forum. If you believe in and want change in the RSL, then you must apply public pressure by exposing the fraud, corruption, incompetence and stupidity of the RSL.

The Police point is true to a large extent. The major problem is individuals have tried to muster the Police into action and this will usually fail. What is needed and what does not exist is a Constitution whereby the RSL leaders are Constitutionally bound to report any evidence of any internal crimes to the Police. This will not happen while the current old boys club, the elite systems, the in house mentality is in place. However it ought to be noted that through public pressure in the Court of Public Opinion the truth of the RSL can be exposed and we believe that in Qld for example this public pressure, coupled with evidence presented to the Crime and Misconduct Commission, would see results.

This website and Forum is the only chance anybody will have of forcing change. If you do not use this place to it’s maximum and use it’s potential on all ESO matters, we may as well pack up our bags and go home now and save ourselves a lot of frustration, pain and time. It’s a do or die time. You have the choice in here of total anonymity. If you choose total anonymity then you cannot be touched. This is our guarantee.

* RSLbetweenwars.pdf (158.46 KB - downloaded 943 times.)
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William
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« Reply #223 on: Thursday23July2009 »

Cavman, I do not wan't to turn this into the "Mutural Admiration Society" but if you had put in your last post first I certainly would not have put in my last one. You talk the talk I like and you are not R&SL orientated. I too wish I had met you before I started my battle with DVA.

Some of the reasons why I am down on Advocates I have known are not directed at Advocates in general but a few issues over the years have soured my and others reason/s for their being here. The prize one over the last few years is that the Advocate who is mentioned in the McDonald v Repat. Commission case mentioned  in a previous post who was touted as a liar and a cheat during that case before the AAT now sits on a state Premier's Veteterans Advisory Committee. Another one in question is an Advocate who had his own office in DVA, a mobile phone supplied to him by DVA and this bloke also had access to Vet's files. It got to the stage where a petition was given to DVA that if this practice did not stop then legal action would begin because the Advocate did not have written permission to look at anyone's file. A case where an Avocate kept a file of an Army Officer under wraps for some 15 months because she was a lesbian. When found out no action taken by the ESO concerened. The list just goes on and not to mention the inter-service bigetry that exists which genders the feeling that lets say an ex-sailor should not get himself an Advocate who is ex-Army because they don't understand. As you would well know the final arguement comes down to case law and how it is applied to the particular applicants employment and health related issues. It is only my opinion but I believe that anyone who want's to be an Advocate should have a legal background to begin with or at least have had to fight for their entitlements in a court of law against the "enemy" to fully appreciate what a Veteran may have to go through if the Advocate makes a stuff up because of a point of law.

The VRB is a good thing as long as it remains impartial. I also believe the apology extended to the Vet in my previous post also was to tone down the fact that the previous board had the same thoughts about him when he related his story and knocked him back. Part of this story is that his Advocate put it back to DVA for a new reconsideration based on some half-arsed evividence he found somewhere only to have it rejected a second time so he puts in another appeal to the VRB then after a month cancels the appeal process but does not inform the Vet in question. When another Advocate at the same ESO pulled the Vet's file at his request after not hearing anything for 12 months it had "F--kw-t" written across it and "looser" underneath it. Fists then started to fly! Funny how some people with ptsd can't or wan't accept it in others.

Cavman, you are the right kind of person to represent service men and women with the grounding you have had. Wish there was more like you on my planet. Congratulations on your OAM because I believe it was rightfully earned in your case and not like some I could mention. If you are interested I am having a judgement brought down tomorrow on a matter of FOI relating to the the Defence Department based on comments made by a Federal Court Judge. Could let you know the findings if you like. Yeh! still fighting the bastards!


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« Reply #222 on: Thursday23July2009 »

G'day William,

Mate, sincerely, I meant no offence in relation the bent out of shape etc remarks below.  Believe me, I have had client s in your situation and know too well the bitterness, distrust and outright loathing they have for the DVA. 

I have always taken the view that DVA are the enemy.  This upsets some people in the RSL.  Tough shit.  I'm the bloke doing the heavy lifting for a poor veteran or widow.
I'll never ever resile from that fact and I even compiled an 18-page case study in 2005, on the mishandling of one client with shocking spinal problems due to his operational service.  I even mentioned the VRB in that case study adversely and sent a copy to Bill Rolfe.  Boof!! Next thing I'm summoned and we sat down over many brews and had a good chat.
My Learned Colleague (formerly of Counsel) was with me and he also pointed out a number of errors in law made by the Board to his advocates.  Who is my Learned Colleague? you might ask.

I was extremely fortunate after getting out in 1986 to meet and to have had as a very special mate for 23 years until his death at 83 last year, an ex-AIF vet who was a former criminal barrister and who did all the AAT and VRB case preparation for his RSL State Branch.  He was my mentor and my great mate and I learned a hell of a lot from him.
I would prepare all my own cases and do all my own research and would get him to proof my cases.  He  never found fault with them except for the odd typo.  We put a very significant submission to the RMA a few years back on multiple micro-trauma to the musculoskeletal system.  The result?  They took out some of the risk factors for damage to the spine in the RH and BOP SOPs.  The RMA too are the enemy  - make no bones about that.  For what it is worth William, I have worked hard to maintain a 100% success record since I started this gig.  And my mate taught me how to go at a case in the methodical way lawyers do and how to proof clients, witnesses etc, etc.  I consider myself to be extremely fortunate.  Being TIP 4 means I can go to the AAT if I need to. But its adversarial and, having PTSD  - well one could get a little adversarial themselves, couldn't they mate?  Just looking at the smug arrogance of some DVA prick sitting at the other table gets the blood pressure percolating.  So, I've only been twice won at both PCs and prefer to use the skills at VRB level.

I'm basically self-trained with a good grasp of the law and trained to the criminal and civil standard.  My Learned Colleague always considered DVA to be the enemy also -without equivocation.  I had one client in 2000, a then serving RSM with over 30 years in, who was repped by a so-called advocate working out of Sydney only to receive a letter from the Board stating "the veteran did not attend and was not represented."  Where was the advocate?  Gone walkabout.  So next thing I'm in the AAT fighting his corner because of this incompetent dipshit from Sydney.  I don't live there but I do interstate and overseas cases. This bloke is still around not covered by VITA protection and is still saying to all and sundry "I'll get you a TPI no worries."   I helped another mate I soldiered with for many years and knew since 1971 - he was a WO2 and based in the NT.  He had the local RSL in Darwin processing his disability claim but due that bloke’s workload I was asked by him to do my mate’s lifestyle.

I work using a full statement based on GARP and it has been 100% successful and much more effective than using the form and an extra bit of A4.  I took a long while to put it together -tyranny of distance.  I sent it to him with a covering letter for the RSL bloke.  They were blown away - thought this was phenomenal.  My mate rings me  8 weeks later and said the claim was knocked back. I said "did they reject it on lifestyle grounds in our statement?"  He said, "the f*****g dickhead at the RSL forgot to send it in with the claim!" Jesus - talk about bitter.  I don't blame my mate. Now he's forced to fight it out at the VRB if a s31 review doesn't work in the first instance.

William I don’t know whether I’d like to see the VRB go.  I respect what you say, but my experience has been that the VRB is the court of last resort for the digger or widow in many, many cases.  I don’t know whether I’d like to see that level abolished because the beauty of it is that you cannot have legal qualifications and practice at the VRB – so the vet or widow still has a Digger’s friend appearing on their behalf.  I’m scared that if  the Board went, we’d be in a situation where those bloody lawyers might take over.  That is a very scary proposition.

Cobber, I don’t know who you were with when you were in country, but you have my undying respect and admiration for what you went through then and what you went through since then.  I’m only sorry I didn’t know you when you needed help because I would have been there for you.

I do not normally piss in my own pockets because they’re not waterproof.  I have studied admin law when working.  I’ve undertaken studies in Vets Law at Southern Cross and at board workshops and continue to monitor case law etc, in relation to veterans’ issues and have attended VRB conferences in 2004 and 2006 to further improve my grasp of the law and veterans’ appeal matters.  I do my level best and believe I’m a pretty good Advocate.


Resolute




« Last Edit: Friday24July2009 by cavman » Logged
Fergus Fairfax
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« Reply #221 on: Thursday23July2009 »

I suggest that if anybody has any evidence of ANY criminal matters regarding anybody in any ESO they take that evidence to the Police.
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Zion
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« Reply #220 on: Thursday23July2009 »

Wada this website and Forum were published for ONE reason.....to whistle blow on all frauds, wannabes and liars, on all crooks, cheats and fools, on all who debase our good name and use our community for their personal benefit.

We have tons of information and wide experience of many many matters and individuals. NOBODY out there in fraudland frightens us.

We are the ONLY wide ranging Australian website which has taken up the challenge, which has met the crooks and frauds head to head and we have gone to great expense and done much work to produce this place for all of right principle. Without this cyber place where would you all be?

Nope, we are no facebook or twitter. However we say there is plenty to line the gang around the country up with without getting stuck into their private lives. After all that's one of the criticisms we have of "them". "They" never answer the questions. But "They" have made vicious attacks on the private lives of many. If we go down that track they will use that to beat us around the head. 

We will continue to allow all reasoned, rational and provable opinions and information into this forum. Go for your life.

These systems are absolutely secure. No worries there.

« Last Edit: Thursday23July2009 by Cassius » Logged

Ethelred
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« Reply #219 on: Thursday23July2009 »

I live in Qld and am an RSL member. A few years ago the Qld RSL employed Mrs Jill Fry as a paid Advocate working out of Rockhampton.

All reputable feedback I have ever received regarding the work Mrs Fry has done has always shown she was very dedicated, competent and efficient.

This week Mrs Fry has resigned and while I know the reasons I won't divulge them just yet. I hasten to add she wasn't sacked, she resigned.

So here we have another instance of an invaluable RSL asset in a highly competent Advocate being lost to the RSL.

I will have more to say on this matter later, as may others, but let me say at this stage the Qld RSL under CEO McHugh is NOT a good employer. McHugh and others like him need to understand we are not in the Armed Forces now and cannot run around the place treating people like cannon fodder and targets of orders and contempt.

There is much wrong with the administration and policies of the RSL overall and if change doesn't rapidy occur the RSL will sink into the abyss and never be seen again. There is no room for other ESOs to become smug for you too have much to answer for.
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William
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« Reply #218 on: Thursday23July2009 »

I take point on everything Cavman has said and in reference to "having a fool for a client" I personnally believe that most of the people I know who represent ESO's in an entitlements representative position have their heads stuck so far up their backsides because of ego's believe themselves that they "have a client who is a fool" and thank God we are here to help them. The VRB is part of DVA whether you like it or not. The TIP training is a whole lot of gullable "bullshit" as long as DVA and it's boss the Dept. of Defence continually use the might of the legal system against Veterans. Most of you blokes seem to have forgotten what was stated back then and that was if something nasty happens to you then we will look after you. Heard no mention of having to fight them in the courts once you were disabled to get what they promised. In all due respect to Cavman I would wan't to be in a Federal or Supreme Court and see how he with all that TIP training would stack up against any number of their QC's or Senior Barristers. I state this not only due to personal experience but because I have been hearing that some representatives are now wanting to represent Veterans at the AAT level. Good luck!

What they should do is do away with the VRB altogether and once the Senior Delegate at DVA has made a decision then straight to the AAT. Case in point is that at the moment Barristers are arguing in court on DFRDB legislation. If one is not medically discharged but later on states that one should have been then one applies to the Cheif of Navy, Army or Airforce for one's "Mode of Discharge" status to be changed. If the Cheif says "No" then one can then apply to the Federal Court. Even if the Judge says "Yes" the Cheif can not be empowered to change his/her original decision. The Barristers on one side are claiming that medical dishcharges are for DFRDB purposes. If one is found medically fit on discharge then one goes straight into civvie street and good luck. If one is found unfit then one is refered to DFRDB (Now Comsuper or Comstate) after one's discharge medical and after a Medical Review Board decision. What the bottom line now is that if one applies to have his "Mode of Discharge" changed under the DFRDB legislation then any decision by the Chief is considered to be a decision by a Delegate of the DFRDB Board and therefore any negative decision from the DFRDB Board upon appeal can be taken to the AAT and so on. At this level the Cheif's decision can be changed.This process eliminates the anxiety and trauma that some Veterans (probably all) and ex-serving members have to go through as it stands now only to recieve a possible "yes" and "no" answer . Bit like a draw in footy, who gets to sing the club song? Doing away with the VRB would be one less painful process to be put through in the case of a negative decision as well the significant reduction in waiting time. This would only take a change in legislation to occur.

And by the way Cavman I have not stated anything about advocates in general. Only the ones I know personally or have been in contact with over the past 27 years. As for being "bitter" I obviously prefer that to the sweetness of licking DVA's rear end. As for being "twisted" I have been diagnosed with chronic ptsd. As for being "bent out of shape" I have had a fractured back (war-caused). Shit!, I need an advocate! You obviously believe you are doing a good job and you come across as being sincere and I salute you for that!
« Last Edit: Thursday23July2009 by William » Logged
Aodh
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« Reply #217 on: Wednesday22July2009 »

I don't know the man, but he is listed on the honours & awards web site for his CSC (East Timor service) and this is his commendation for distinguished service in Iraq:

Group Captain Christopher Joseph McHUGH, CSC
For distinguished performance of duties in warlike operations as the Chief Projects and Operations for the Coalition Provisional Authority, South Central region of Iraq during Operations Falconer and Catalyst.

GPCAPT McHugh distinguished himself through exceptional service to the peoples of Iraq. He exhibited superior leadership, outstanding professional competence and extraordinary foresight in addressing a broad range of complex project management issues.

His innovative leadership and analytical efforts resulted in significant and enduring contributions to the Authority’s mission. GPCAPT McHugh’s distinguished achievements in this high threat combat environment are of the highest order and are in keeping with the finest traditions of the Air Force and the ADF.
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wada
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« Reply #216 on: Wednesday22July2009 »

Hello all,
As a new member this is my first post with many to follow:
I am a third generation veteran with tours of Vietnam in 1969 / 70 and again in 1971. I have been a TPI since 1998, an ex - Darwinite now living in Cairns.
My main beef is with the Executives of the Far Northern District RSL Branch in dealing with their corrupt, gutless and cowardly actions.
However, before getting into the nitty gritties, I would like some feed back on the XXXXXXX "Chris McHugh csc". (CEO) I remonstrated with him about his refusal to allow me to speak with the State President in regard to an urgent personal matter. A CEO involving themselves in veteran’s personal matters is not on; or is this new face of the Qld RSL? A civy employed to look after the administration of the State RSL telling vets what to do and where to go. His pathetic performance in his area of employment and his schoolyard bullying will be the subject of a further post at another time. I have this turkey fair square in my sights.
Believe me, after everything these Cretins have put me through it will be my delight in naming and shaming the undesirables.
All the content to be supplied by me can be validated!
Regards Wada!
I have edited this post to remove a question I asked of which has been answered.[/i]
« Last Edit: Thursday23July2009 by Cassius » Logged
cavman
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« Reply #215 on: Wednesday22July2009 »

The Service Member is to my way of thinking, crucial to the decision-making process that is applied by the Board according to the law.  Just because they do not come from the same service as the applicant appearing before them is not a relevant consideration.  As a Practising VRB Advocate since '86 and a TIP 4 level AAT Advocate (1996),  I have nothing but respect for the Board and its efforts to arrive at a conclusion that is  satisfactory to the applicant.  Sadly, that does not always happen and it can be for any number of reasons one, chief of which is incompetent representation.

I have appeared before Service members from all 3 branches of the Armed Forces and I have never experienced any difficulty in getting across to them, the effects of  service to all 3 Board members. I have been treated with nothing short of unfailing courtesy as have my clients and any witnesses I call. I have seen first-hand the efforts of Boards to  try and  get the facts from an applicant - after all this is an inquisitorial process and not adversarial at that level.  Bill Rolfe describes the Board as an intermediate-level appeals tribunal and he is correct in that regard.  The Advocate owes a duty to the client top resent the argument to meet the requisite standard of proof or  legislative test (reasonable hypothesis) as the case may be.

The workload of an Advocate today is considerably more complex than it has been in the past and we need to stay ahead of the game by continued research and keeping up to date with such things as case law and any changes to those egregious SOPs.  Board members are not constrained by legal technicalities, however it falls to us to make ourselves award of any tribunal/Court decisions that may impact on our case.  They have in my experience been well-briefed on  service in Vietnam and I have ever appeared before a WW2 service member – some that come to mind that I have appeared before include AVM Fred Barnes, Brig "Chic" Charlesworth (CO 2 RAR 1st tour), Brig Geoff Leary, Admiral Jerry Cawardine ( a Gunnery Officer), Mr "Dusty" Miller (6RAR Nasho private), Col Tony Wailes, Brig Ian Darlington (RAA), Mr Greg Mawkes (SAS 2 tours).

I have appeared before Senior Members  who were Supreme Court Registrars, or first-class barristers such as Brian Proctor, Judith Malcolm, Bernice Milburn, Bruce Topperwein, Michael Ryan, John Cooke, Stephen Skehill, John Gallagher.

Oh, and yes, I have tangled with Board members because the duty of an Advocate is to represent their client with “frankness, honesty and candour” and I have been warned for contempt of Board. 
I have also gone toe-to-toe with a Service Member in the counsel’s room post-hearing and really ripped into him.  Believe me there was heartburn and he lost badly.

I have also been extremely fortunate to have as a guiding light among the staff of the Board, the former Principal Registrar, Fred Woodhouse (D&E Pl 1970-71) who was a tower of strength and a fount of knowledge and advice when I first started out in June 1986.

As an ex SNCO, I am able to prepare my cases as I would any lesson using a lesson plan as the basic template with the constant mantra for any instructor - attain the knowledge - do the research, get to know your client and establish a rapport.  Be prepared to tell a client if the appeal is unsustainable or that any part of their instructions could be fatal to their case.

Simply put I take exception to the accusations levelled at Advocates in general.
They are extremely dedicated people and I think those who are bitter, twisted and bent out of shape must have had incompetent representation or represented themselves - in effect having a fool for a client.

EOD 132’s post lower down wondering whether we should even have a VRB forum, has some merit.
« Last Edit: Wednesday22July2009 by cavman » Logged
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« Reply #214 on: Wednesday22July2009 »

"Qualified" is an interesting term.  I suspect it means different things to each of the respondents.  Dunt wants to have a psychiatrist on the Board for matters with a psychiatric element.  Does that mean that there should be a GP or condition-related specialist on each board that has a medical element?  I guess it's the same as the argument that a grunt can't judge the service of a matelot.  Isn't it better to have a person with SOME service rather than none at all?  By these standards you'd need to be a chook to be qualified to serve on the Egg Board!
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grunter
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« Reply #213 on: Wednesday22July2009 »

William and others

Some good issues hear and i relate to Williams point about 'what really happened".
I remember as a member of one of the significant Battalions being contacted about a Bunker Contact incident; reaching for the Battalion Tour book, i quickly found the incident had indeed taken place as the Digger was claiming.

Although i had not heard about the incident when i was with the Battalion.
So i replied to the email with book, page etc and checked back weeks later with the Advocate and a TPI had been approved.
So why did it take minutes for me to verify the 'incident'?
What the hell was the advocate(s) and the VRB been doing for months?

I take on board eod132 point perhaps my case could have been put in a stronger manner?
However that does not take away from my point of apples vs oranges; which no one has answered!
How can a air force member relate to grunt work?

This became more clear when i attended one of the DVA focused Psychiatrist and even he agreed that my 'incident' did meet the requirements of the legislation; which lead to my TPI being granted. Nearly TWO years later!
Am i bitter? You bet your sweet bippy i am!

And no i could not sit an listen to other stories after attending my PTSD courses.
One of the reasons i feel slack in not helping other Vets in doing the TIP course.
But i do what i can to support Vets who come for help. By guiding then to Advocates who are able to do that and deal with the DVA and VRB 

ANYWAY; What happens in the future?
Will we see a seaman on the VRB dealing with Grunt cases from Iraq or Afghanistan?


   
 
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William
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« Reply #212 on: Wednesday22July2009 »

My apologies! I just checked up and he retired a Brigadier. Anyway, no names, no courtmarshals. My only reason for the post was that that was the first time I had heard of the VRB being sympathetic let alone offering an apology to anyone. My opinion of some advocates is personal but their actions reflect badly on others. Just as an example when the Vet in question first fronted the VVF he was just put on a computer, given a website and told to look it up himself. One thing that has always amazed me with the ones I know, and some I attended with in two ptsd courses is that they can go on for 8 weeks crying their eyes out ect relating their horrible experiences and listning to that of others, but as soon as they receive their T&PI's they can sit at an ESO 8hrs plus and listen to these stories day-in and day-out without the same reaction as displayed during the ptsd programme. And this is after 30 or 40yrs in the workforce and a six figure super payout. T&PI makes good pocket money when one is about to retire.

This is my last word on this subject in this post as it is suppopsed to be about the VRB. If you wan't to talk about qualified as apposed to non-qualified members then do a post on the DFRDB Board where many a retired and serving members of the forces regularly sit and screw Veterans and ex-service personel out of an entitlement. Start up another one dealing with advocates issues and I will respond accordingly.
« Last Edit: Wednesday22July2009 by William » Logged
DodgerG
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« Reply #211 on: Wednesday22July2009 »

Just as a matter of interest who was the retired LTGEN who served on the VRB ?
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William
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« Reply #210 on: Wednesday22July2009 »

Well, you are entitled to your opinion! This chap's first time ever he went to the R&SL. Then to the VVA. Then to the VVF. If they are the "bar room Mates" you speak of then I can now understand why he got no where. There wasn't really much effort put into his case by any of them because they were not about to score another notch to their ego's. Too hard basket! The one thing I really dislike about the majority of advocates I know is when they "count heads" and state "I got so & so his T&PI this week" when in reallity it is the Veteran's service and medical history that gets it for them. I spent just over nine and a half years in the VRB, AAT & Federal Court to go from nothing to T&PI and I had no help from any ESO or advocate. I do not need a position in life that bad that I have to go around kissing the enemy's arse to get some poor Vet an entitlement he should be given in the first place out of gratitude, not grovelling! I only replied to this subject to point out that the VRB can be sympathetic when it suits.

As I said before when one spends that amount of time fighting for your rights up against their legal might instead of being handed it on a platter one learns a trick or two. That's why I was able to help this Vet and I don't go around telling everyone that "I got it for him". I did it for him because he is a Mate! By the way, he had no previous dealings with DVA as he still had his own business when he first approached an ESO. At one time in the AAT while battling a Barrister and two other lawyers (I was by myself) from DVA and them thinking I was the usual dumb Vet with half a brain cell left, I let the fun go on for awhile and just when they thought they had me I said to the Deputy President; "They are not acting as a "Model Litigant". When asked why not I stated that the Commonwealth (DVA) can not come into a court room and defend something knowing it to be true! Well, could have heard a pin drop. After I explained what they were fighting me over was indeed factual and produced medical documents from the 36th US Evac Hospital in Vietnam in 1968 and in my opininion was pushed through by persons or a person with an axe to grind within DVA they immediately conceded and walked out of the hearing. That is just an example of what one learns up there with the big boys!

As to your last sentence I, if I was really bothered about your opinion, should take offense at the suggestion that what I stated is not true. As a matter of fact, if you are that well trained by the establishment who fight Veteran's claims with the tenacity of a, what did you say; "a rat!" then you would be familiar with the McDonald v Repatriation Commission matter in SA around July 2002 I believe when one of your highly skilled, highly TIP trained advocate's case was thrown out of the AAT because the Applicant admitted under oath that the advocate filled out the claim form for him and lied in it. Also made a complete goose out of the DVA appointed psychiatrist. No, I do not have a high regard for most of the ones I know.
« Last Edit: Wednesday22July2009 by William » Logged
104SIG
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« Reply #209 on: Tuesday21July2009 »

William, as a practicing Advocate, current on my TIP training, I have to say that I smell a rat.  Did by any chance your veteran friend firstly do his own claim, with the assistance of his bar-room mates who had already been there, done that and got the T-shirt?  Then after having his initial claim rejected, having firmly already shot himself in the foot with embellishments or whatever,  when he went to the three ESO's for assistance, how forthcoming was he with previous history, not only of the basis of his contentions, but of his previous dealings with DVA?

I lead a team of 12 practicing Welfare & Pensions, Advocates with two of them also practicing at the AAT.  I have to say frankly that the vast majority of our work comes from those who ignored the advice of the discharge cell or whom ever to get trained assistance with their disability claims, having retired as a senior NCO or Officer and therefore believing that they "knew how the system works" when in reality they did not have a single clue about the Veterans Entitlement Act or subsequent Acts.

In closing, I take offence at your maligning of a group of fellow veterans who give freely of their own free time to be trained and practice their skills to obtain the best possible outcome for their fellow veterans or any conflict.
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William
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« Reply #208 on: Tuesday21July2009 »

This is a positive for the VRB. After having at least four DVA trained so-called advocates tell this person he had a "snowball in hell" chance of ever getting T&PI after  being branded a "poor historian" and a "liar" by a Senior Member at the AAT, this Veteran went back on the piss to give his family more hell and grief after staying clean for roughly two years. His family came to me to see if I could help him as we have known each other since we were kids and I agreed. I am a trained "no body" but just another Veteran who has been put through the legal system by DVA. This is the best learning ground if one wishes to learn how to fight "the system".

Anyway, after a little searching in archives (which none of these trained advocates even bothered to research) the official documents pertaining to the incident that the Veteran was accused of being a liar for were revealed and you guessed it, he was telling the absolute truth but the damage had been done. I mounted a fresh case to DVA and at the VRB the Principal Member on behalf of the board not only apologised to this Veteran on the way he had been treated by the AAT member, but also for the way his case was handled by the various advocates from three ESO's. This apology is in writing and signed. One of the board members sitting was a Lt.General (retired) and he was the most apologetic of the lot.

You see they are human afterall if approached in the right manner! The Veteran recieved the T&PI so right outcome in the end!
« Last Edit: Tuesday21July2009 by William » Logged
Akela
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« Reply #207 on: Tuesday21July2009 »

There are three members to each Board. The President is legally qualified, which makes sense as the law has to be interpreted and applied. There is an "ordinairy" member and, of course a Services member. This is a better composition that most civil Tribunals. The selection criteria is quite tough. It is available on the web site. I have read many VRB Decisions and Reasons. They sometimes get it wrong in law; however, I have never seen a VRB Decision and Reasons where emotional or subjective views are put. Any half decent Presiding Member would ensure that it would not happen. In any case, VRB decisions are reviewable by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal ("AAT"). In most cases, legal aid is available to retain a lawyer. In operational service cases, there is no means or assets test. I think the real question is: do we need a VRB? Is it just another expensive Tribunal? Prehaps it should be done away with with Veterans appealing straight to the AAT from an internal review of the primary decision? The money spent on maintaing the VRB could then be applied to other resources, such as training pension officers.
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eod132
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« Reply #206 on: Tuesday21July2009 »

If this is the best input we can expect from this VRB forum then perhaps you should reconsider having it at all. This comment cannot be taken seriously by any reasonable thinking veteran and if it is indicative of an "infantry grunts" ability to articulate a case then it is no wonder so many of them fail at the Review Board.
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grunter
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« Reply #205 on: Tuesday21July2009 »

G'DAY

My main complaint about the VRB which comes from personal experience, is using non qualified members to sit on Veteran Cases.
While one of the members is a veteran, what is the point of having a WW2 RAAF wanker judging an Infantry; Grunt who served in the new type of war that was Vietnam?

Thats like having a grunt judging a RAAF pilot who flew over Europe on bombing missions.
How can you put a persons service in to prospective, and reliant to their disabilities without some form of knowledge and experince?

My feeling was that some members where picked for their negative attitudes towards Viet Nam Veterans.

out!     
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Crackers
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« Reply #204 on: Monday20July2009 »

I'm afraid it's not only the Navy who put in dodgy claims. A lot of our fellow diggers do the same.

It appears when some reach the magic age of 55 their superannuation matures and they suddenly develop PTSD from Vietnam, some 30 years earlier and trot down to their local VVAA or VVFA and trot out with a TPI pension.

How can an ex Nasho do 30 years in the Fire Brigade, facing death and despair every day, suddenly go loopy at age 55 from his time in Vietnam?

Same for an ex engineer who did 33 years in the Vic police force, who suddenly discovered he had PTSD after going on an organised veterans camp out.

I have associated with one particular Vietnam Veterans group for the past 15 years. Most are on TPI pensions for either PTSD or a bad back. The PTSD acquired from various stressors whilst serving in Vietnam and the bad backs for doing such daring things as diving into a hole in the ground while carrying the radio, yet.............

One stressor from a signals wallah. 'I was in a helicopter which took small arms fire and I didn't have a weapon to fire back with'

Another signaller spent his time at Nui Dat delivering the daily signals to various posts. He claimed nightmares where the Viet Cong were coming to slit his throat (in 15 years I never heard him have one nightmare).

In fact, I never heard anyone screaming or yelling out in the night - and I spent a lot of time sleeping near these blokes.

And the bad backs.......................blokes who had been truckies for years after their Nasho time, lumping heavy cargo and driving rigid trucks, suddenly get a bad back from their time carrying the spare barrel for the M60.

I do not suffer from PTSD. My injuries are all physical. However, I spent an afternoon with three warriors who detailed incident after incident where their PTSD 'kicked in' and they went loopy. I had similar stories and they swore blind that I had PTSD.

No - I was just a grumpy old man - as most of them were.
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Zion
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« Reply #203 on: Saturday18July2009 »

AN OVERVIEW OF THE RSL

AVM COMMENT

We have been aware of the following matters for years.

 

The RSL administration procedures and policy platform leave much to be desired. The simple truth is the RSL is becoming more and more irrelevant and is stubbornly resisting all calls to change its Constitutions, its public image, how it promulgates updated information and its administration. We live in a 21st century computer and technology driven age and yet the RSL refuses at many turns to embrace the times. There is little wonder that several generations of ex Service and Serving members after the Vietnam War, who cut their teeth on new thinking and new technology, who communicate via computers, IPODS, IPHONES, Text messaging and social networking websites, show little interest in the RSL and remain largely unwilling to take out membership or retain membership. Younger Veterans, Serving members and indeed many WW2 and Vietnam Veterans have no interest at all in being a member of what is essentially an old boys club. More than this all decent people want honesty and full accountability from RSL leaders.
 

We will not confine our balanced criticisms to the RSL. The RSL is not the only ESO which fails its members,is not the only ESO which allows fraud and corruption to go unreported and is not the only ESO which spends time navel gazing instead of looking after members and the wider interests of all in the ex Service and serving communities. As time unfolds we will look at other ESOs and Associations. Our criticisms may sound harsh. We intend looking for the truth and nothing else. We acknowledge there are many good, dedicated RSL members who are respected and who do a great job, but they are let down by a largely inept, tired and disheveled leadership and by the atrocious behaviour of some ordinary members.

We are currently looking at the Qld RSL. We will widen this focus to embrace the RSL around the country.

The Qld RSL State Branch has much to answer for. Over many years the RSL in Queensland has been riven with fraud, corruption, cronyism and incompetence at many levels. These problems have not been confined to just the State Branch HQ in Brisbane, though this is where the buck stops.

Let us look at some of these matters.

Many years ago [ around 1994 ] the Qld War Veterans Homes and Welfare Art Union, which was set up to benefit the War Veterans of Qld, allowed monies to be used for other illegal purposes. A portion of the profits of the "The Golden Treasure" Art Union [$520,308] was transferred to the National Headquarters of the RSL in Canberra for building repairs and other reasons.  This transfer was secret and at that time unauthorised by the appropriate body of the Qld Branch of the RSL. The pivotal RSL State Branch member involved in this illegal transfer of Qld funds was Eric Kay. No action has even been taken against Kay that we know of or against those who conspired with him. This matter should have been immediately reported to the Police, yet as you will see, the Qld RSL has a penchant for not reporting suspected RSL fraud and corruption within the RSL to the Police. They have consistently shown they prefer to handle suspected criminal matters in house.

A few years ago medals belonging to a War Veterans family were given/donated to the Yeppoon RSL museum, near Rockhampton in Qld. The Curator, an RSL member, then swapped these medals with another RSL member for a rifle and the recipient of the medals then on sold these medals to the War Memorial. A resultant Police investigation concluded that the rifle seller and the War Memorial had no case to answer, the medals were handed back to the seller and the money handed back to the War Memorial and we presume the rifle was handed back to its owner. This curator and the Yeppoon RSL sub branch had no action taken against them. This matter was hushed up and swept under the carpet, like so many others.

Time after time many Qld RSL Clubs and sub branches have found themselves in financial difficulties. It has been common for these RSL Clubs and sub branches [ understand a Club is not a sub branch ] to have been maladministered by frauds and crooks and in some cases the relevant Districts and the State Branch have known of these criminal activities as they have been occurring and, you guessed it, the leaders have never reported these matters to the Police that we know of. The simple matter is that if anybody in the RSL is suspected of fraud or corruption, or any other suspected criminal offence against the League those matters should be handed to the Police for investigation, if the Police consider there are cases to answer they would charge those facing Police allegations and a Court would decide the guilt or innocence of the parties. This procedure is not generally followed in the Qld RSL. Some notorious cases of these types of matters have occurred at the Kingaroy RSL, the Kilcoy RSL, the former Rockhampton RSL and the Maryborough RSL. This list of places is the tip of the iceberg.

In other instances where there may have been no sub branch or club fraud and corruption involved but where club trading had become impossible or the sub branch had become insolvent the State Branch has bailed out sub branches and Clubs with loans, and under the terms of some or all loans 51% ownership of club premises has gone to the State Branch. There is no use throwing good members money after bad and if a business is going to fail with no hope of ever becoming solvent it should be allowed to fail permanently. This is good and normal commercial practice. Under the terms of these loans the loans then have to be paid back but after and if they are cleared the ownership deals remain in place as far as we know. In other words the State Branch ends up owning something for nothing.

Let’s look at the theft by Keith Joyce and the Rockhampton Military and Artifacts Museum of RSL memorabilia which belongs to the RSL members of Rockhampton. Nothing has been done about this that we know of. What about the matter of costs for the Court case to fight Keith Joyces Lone Pine Ltd, a two dollar company which was set up to siphon off all the assets and cash of Rockhampton RSL members. Joyces Lone Pine Ltd lost this Court case and the buildings which were owned by Rockhampton RSL members are now owned by the Poineer Fitzroy Highlands RSL District [ based in Mackay ]. Some office space in these buildings is now rented, and the rentals are used to pay back to State the legal costs it says it incurred. The local Rockhampton RSL members receive none of this rent. How absurd. Not all these so called Legal expenses are legal expenses. Some of the expenses incurred are for superannuation monies paid to that crook Joyce for a superannuation fund he set up as Managing Director of LPL, a Company he set up for his own ends. As LPL managing director he was paid a salary and superannuation contributions from RSL members money. Nothing has been done about any of this . So once again frauds and crooks have had no action taken against them.

Read about Joyce here

http://www.austvetmatters.net/joyce.html

http://www.austvetmatters.net/keithjoyce.html

http://www.austvetmatters.net/Docs/Joyceupadte8feb09.doc

As we go to air we are told the Coorparoo RSL Club has gone into receivership and there are many questions hanging over the head of the Coorparoo RSL sub branch and club. We hope our informant sends us some details.

The list goes on and on. It is almost endless. If we were to lay out all cases blow by blow we would be here forever. We will unveil some cases in more detail as time goes on. No doubt you have the picture by now.

The following email was received by AVM and demonstrates the types of matters which concern members.

From: xxxxx xxxx
To: admin@austvetmatters.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:00 PM
Subject: Keith Joyce


Gidday to whoever is on the end of this email.



My name is xxxx xxxx and I was subject to the rantings of Keith Joyce during my time as Secretary/Manager of xxxxxxx RSL Services Club Ltd in 1995-1996 and during this time I was also a member of the xxxxxx Sub-branch and was part of that committee.


This grub many years later posted my name on some website as helping to remove him from the membership of the xxxxxx Sub-branch RSL a fact that I dispute to this day.I may have voted not to re-new his membership of both the organisations mentioned but I certainly did not personally remove him.


I did however remember sending him a letter notifying him that his presence in the registered and licenced part of the building which also housed the sub- branch would not be tolerated as I considered him a trouble maker due to threats and rantings.


I can remember taking many telephone calls from him over a period of time abusing me and asking for written reasons why I had effectively barred him from the licenced premises.


After I discovered I was on a website and not painted as a reputable person I wrote to the Secretary  Qld State RSL asking for information on the current membership status of Joyce and informing them that I appeared on this website.


Guess what - no reply but that did not surprise me as that other grub Bill Mason (ex Western Districts and corrupt as hell) was the incumbent State President.


My name is still on the website that Joyce either created or played a major part of and I can not get it removed.


Any one Googling my full name until about 18 months ago would have seen it and related it back to me if they were a friendly.


This has had a major effect on my life as a Club Manager/Hotel Manager/ Resort Manager and even liquor licence holder as I had to answer questions from potential employers and any person doing a check on me.


The sooner this grub is in the ground the better - his whole life was conceived in stupidity and born of malice and naivety.


Kind regards
xxxxxxxxxx
Essentially it all comes down to this. RSL members and ADF members and others who are affected by the policies of the RSL are crying out for honesty, full accountability, optimum communications, principled leadership and a modern Constitution.
« Last Edit: Saturday18July2009 by Cassius » Logged

Fergus
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« Reply #202 on: Thursday16July2009 »

The RSL - They know what is good for us.
 
I’m just one of the many many Veterans around the traps who have read, with dismay, the recent National RSL President’s remarks when responding to TPI Federation President Blue Ryan.
 
This is what he said to Blue Ryan the President of the TPI Federation:
 

“ From: National President's Office national.president@rsl.org.au

Sent: Tuesday, 30 June 2009 7:22 AM

To: 'National President TPI Fed'

Subject: Budget 2009

Dear Blue

You sought the RSL’s view in relation to your recent letter to the Prime Minister seeking an adjustment to the Special Rate Pension as a follow-on to the recently announced changes to the Aged, Service and War Widow’s Pensions. 

You may be disappointed but the RSL membership has not brought forward any proposal to seek such a flow-on and if it was to be brought forward, it is unlikely to be supported.

It would be our general view that the recent pension changes were introduced in the Budget to redress significant problems for those existing on means-tested Aged and Service Pensions. We note that adjustments to compensation payments and Disability Pensions had been made relatively recently.

Notwithstanding, some 80% of Special Rate recipients receive either a part or full Service Pension.  These people, generally without other sources of income and being most in need, will in any event benefit from these pension adjustments. 

Kind regards

Bill Crews”

The National RSL President has made a stupid statement that represents an Ivory Tower mindset that will further alienate veterans from the RSL.
 
The silent majority of decent Veterans are confused and bewildered by the behaviour of the higher echelons of the RSL and many of the bewildered are RSL members who are muzzled by the RSL system. God help us if ever any group like the Mad Galahs got control of anything at all in the Veteran community, so it is important that the "Silent Majority" of Veterans become vocal and do something about their RSL and the Mad Galahs.
 
General Crews may as well join the Prime Minister's staff as his "Spin Doctor" as he sure knows how to bowl government googlies.
 
The RSL has lost its way; it is no longer representative of Veterans. Crews's performance has been abominable

Aye

Fergus
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Zion
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« Reply #201 on: Wednesday15July2009 »

Some of the mad galahs are running around the place saying AVM has realised what the mad galahs have said about ESO problems is true.

Nah mad galah boys and girls, you are wrong again. We place no weight or credibility on anything you say. Your problem is that most of you are just as fraudulent, corrupt, incompetent, stupid and vicious as the ESO members you attack.

Pot, kettle, black eh? People in glass houses........

No we have known for many years of the ESO situation and other situations in other areas of society and we will be opening all these areas up as we see fit, not when the mad galahs see fit. We have always intended to do one thing or maybe two at a time and not charge in like a bull in a china shop.

For example we will be looking at the VRB and other Government bodies situations.
AVM
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« Reply #200 on: Wednesday15July2009 »

The RSL is an anachronism, an old boys club, a voice from the past and a place where cronyism, fraud, incompetence and corruption thrive. It is no longer a Veterans organisation.There is no doubt about our statements and we will prove what we say over time. The RSL will not change until a new Constitution, Rules and By-laws are drawn up. Until then it will continue living in the last century.

This post will open up matters in the Qld RSL. The Qld RSL has been corrupt and fraudulent for many many years. People like Keith Joyce, Bill Mason, Ray DeVere and others who we will name as time unfolds at both State management level, State Council level, District level and in sub branches got away with criminal offences against the Qld RSL for years and some are still doing so.

We will not be feeding you all these ESO matters in one sitting but rather over time. We need your feedback and comment to deepen this knowledge base.

There is a history in Queensland of cover ups, of fraud and corruption, all supposedly done to keep these matters in house for the sake of protecting the "good name " of the League.

Many years ago the Qld RSL State Branch signed a peppercorn rental lease agreement with the VVAA Qld allowing the VVAA to administer Angus House Brisbane, which is located in Toowong not far from the city centre. The building is an old Queenslander dwelling. This is prime real estate and close to many amenities. Angus House was established to provide mainly short term accommodation for those who needed a short term place to live or a place to sleep and shower while in Brisbane undergoing medical treatment and consultation etc.

The place deteriorated into a drug smoking palace and drunks den years ago, with fights and arguments the norm. Known frauds and wannabes frequented the place and one of the managers was a well know wannabe. The Police were often called. This smoking palace and drunks den situation went on for years, while the VVAA did nothing and the RSL hid it's head in the sand.

Eventually some began to speak out publicly, notably the Capricornia and Rockhampton Region RSL sub branch and the AVM website.

Like all these types of matters, nothing is ever achieved by talking to the organisations themselves, within the Councils of the organisations themselves. In the end these matters are resolved in the Court of Public Opinion.

The Qld RSLs hand has now been forced, after many years, and it is has now acted to end the VVAA lease and clean the operation of Angus House up, so it says. Time will tell.

However as usual the Qld RSL is claiming the credit for sorting out this monstrous mess. The truth is it would never have moved if public pressure had not been applied from various quarters. AVM does not want any medals or awards. But we do want the truth spoken. Give due credit to those in the Capricornia RSL sub branch for example for the great work they have done to bring this matter to a head. We abhor the practice of all ESO leaderships stealing the thunder of others.

The following email has been circulated by Mrs Jill Fry in Rockhampton. Jill Fry is not a War Veteran and is not an RSL member. She is a paid level 4 Advocate who works from the former Rockhampton RSL sub branch building in Rockhampton. Jill has no say in and no input into any RSL policy. She is simply an employee, and a very competent advocate according to reports we have seen.

Why then is the Qld RSL State Branch Office CEO, Chris McHugh, another paid employee, sending the following information to a paid employee of the Qld RSL and not sending it to the local sub branch in Rockhampton?

This behaviour smacks eerily of what is wrong with the Qld RSL. Poor communication, cronyism, petty jealousy, nepotism and game playing.

The RSL asked why ADF members and Veterans are not joining the Qld RSL at its recent Qld State Congress. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand why. The reasons are as plain as the nose on one's face and all it needs is an open mind and willingness to change to remedy the poor membership situation. We will have something to say about this issue as time unfolds.

The email follows.

From: Jill Fry
To: xxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009
Subject: FW: Staff announcement - Angus House


Sent for your information only

 

Jill Fry JP (Qual)
Advocate | Pensions, Advocacy & Welfare Services
RSL (Queensland Branch)
Jill.Fry | www.rslqld.org


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6 Archer Street, Rockhampton QLD 4700
PO Box 6551, CQMC QLD 4708
Ph: 07 4922 7747 | Fax: 07 4922 7718 | Mob: 0429 321 538
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any distribution, copying or dissemination of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error or are not the named recipient, please notify the Returned & Services League of Australia (Queensland Branch) immediately and destroy the original message.
 
LEST WE FORGET

 

From: Chris McHugh
Sent: Sunday, 12 July 2009 6:58 PM
To: All RSL QLD Staff
Subject: Staff announcement - Angus House

 

Dear all,

I am pleased to announce that RSL (Qld Branch) has recently taken over the operation and running of Angus House in Toowong. Angus House provides accommodation for veterans and others who are homeless as a result of crisis, as well as providing short-term accommodation for veterans needing specialist medical care or counselling. In providing accommodation of this nature for up to 17 residents, we take pride in noting that this expansion in our operations further demonstrates the commitment of RSL (Qld Branch) to the welfare of members of the veteran community in line with our Mission.

Furthermore, I welcome the new Supervisor of Angus House, Lynda Boler and Cook, Lynda Poole.

Regards,

Chris McHugh CSC
Chief Executive Officer
RSL (Queensland Branch)
Chris.McHugh@rslqld.org | www.rslqld.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

283 St Pauls Tce, Fortitude Valley QLD 4006
PO Box 629, Spring Hill QLD 4004
Ph: (07) 3634 9444 | Fax: (07) 3634 9400
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any distribution, copying or dissemination of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error or are not the named recipient, please notify the Returned & Services League of Australia (Queensland Branch) immediately and destroy the original message.
 
LEST WE FORGET
« Last Edit: Wednesday15July2009 by Cassius » Logged

Nuidat68
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« Reply #199 on: Tuesday14July2009 »

John Hains was the digger who tried to STOP 3 VVAA members from going to the Chicago vietnam veterans welcome home in 1986. He was then the President of VVAA along with Don Wilson they tried to stop these 3 going because they didnt believe they as members of the VVAA should attend because they didnt want them too. He sent Don Wilson his number two man into Christies in George Street sydney where these 3 diggers and 3 other who were not VVAA members were buying memoribilla to take to the Chicago Welcome home parade. Well we all know now that because of these 6 diggers going to chicago and returning home to set up the sydney parade committee. The judgement of these 2 VVAA blokes Hains & Wilson were about as far from the mark as possible, and today these 6 diggers think back on this and laugh their bloody heads off.
Duty First - nuidat 68.
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Zion
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« Reply #198 on: Tuesday14July2009 »

Hi members,

When we published AVM we had a vision. Our vision was not confined to exposing the mad galahs for what they are but went beyond that.

Our initial aim was to expose the fraudulent behaviour and nature of the mad galahs, and this has been achieved, with help from many of you.

Our vision is to encompass wideranging whistleblowing subjects and our next move is into exposing the fraud, corruption, incompetence and nepotism in Ex service organisations[ESOs].

There is a serious problem in ESOs, particularly at the leadership levels, and this problem extends across ALL ESOs. There is no excuse for unreported fraud and corruption in ESOs and no excuse for incompetence and cronyism.

A new board is now open here  http://austvetmatters.net/avmforum/index.php?board=7.0 and we encourage you strongly to expose what you know of the behaviour and operation of ESOs. We are not interested in malicious gossip. We are interested in your experiences in ESOs and provable information regarding the operation of ESOs.

We remind you that this website and Forum offer YOU guaranteed security and you can't be traced. This is how whistleblowing websites operate, and we make no apologies for offering all users anonymity if they choose it.Nobody will ever know who you are unless you wish to disclose your real name when you make a posting or reply.

We are not engaged in any vendetta against any ESO but do intend exposing the truth about all ESOs in the fervent hope that by our work we all may gain more honest and better representation from ESOs and their leaders.

We have no favourites and all ESOs will be treated the same.

If you don't wish to make a forum posting but wish to send feedback just send your information to

admin@austvetmatters.net

YOURS
AVM WEBSITE.
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« Reply #197 on: Wednesday10June2009 »

G'DAY ALL

Well i will soon have my answer about the attitude of the RSL Sydney MARCH Committee.
As i am invited to attend the meeting tomorrow in Sydney.

I have been told many grunts have been telling the RSL of their disgust of the set up of the ANZAC March for a number of years.

I will attempt to find out what the RSL will bot fix this farse?

G.   
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Zion
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« Reply #196 on: Saturday16May2009 »

QUOTE PETER DENVER

I've said it before, and I'll say it again for your benefit Butcher, if you or anyone else have something to complain about him, take it to the Federal Police.

For the information of all in this forum. You should note that the AFP have no interest at all in shit fights between Veterans. They also prioritise tasks and make judgements about what to pursue based on human resources, financial resources, time and urgency and the national interest.

We have known this for years.

Thus, unless Hammal or anybody else NOW commits a serious Federal crime the Federal Police will not become involved. As you say Peter the Hammal matter has been resolved in the correct places, which are the VRB and AAT.

Having said that the credibility and reputation of China Hammal will be decided in the Court of Veteran opinion.

We have offered Hammal the opportunity to present his side of the matter freely and openly in here via Peter Denver and so far this fair offer has been either declined or ignored.

All of these types of matters are eventually decided in the Court of Public Opinion.

This thread has been locked and will not be reopened unless Hammal wishes to post his side of the story. We have no intention of going around in circles.

Additionally AVM pays for hosting of this Forum and the AVM website, we have built the website and forum, we maintain both and moderate this Forum and we are the ones who do all the hard yakka and spend all the time in keeping this ANONYMOUS system open for all to have their say without fear of retribution.

Therefore we will decide how this Forum is moderated. If there is anybody out there who doesn't like the way we operate the choices are simple, remove your membership of this Forum and never visit this Forum or the AVM website again.
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« Reply #195 on: Friday15May2009 »

G'DAY ALL

Well the next round of the Sydney ANZAC DAY March mess is about to commence.
I have received my invitation to attend the RSL ANZAC March wash-up meeting.
The letters states this is to "obtain feed-back and suggestions of the organisation of the Sydney ANZAC Day March".

Unfortunately the letter does not have a date of the meeting?
I am at present reworking the post which outlines my points and arguments against the present chaos which laughingly passes its self off as an "ANZAC March".

When completed i intend to seek the support of the other Viet Nam Battalion Associations; who attend those meetings to see if collectively we can agree on a position and work together to correct this situation.

It occurs to me watching this years March (video) that the Viet Nam Battalions/Corps Associations are the single biggest group of "VETERANS"'marching . That when the present WW2 Vets parade on that Parade ground in the sky; then the Post World War Two Veterans should logically march at the head of the Parade?

That being the Fighting arms of the Army who have borne the brunt of the Land Campaigns the Army has fought since the end of WW2 when the Army became a professional regular Army (ARA). Korea, Malaya, Borneo, Viet Nam.
Those Corps being the RAR, Artillery, Cavalry, Engineers, etc apologies for those missed?

So the question will be asked; when the turn of the collective Associations of the Viet Nam Veterans arrives to LEAD the Sydney ANZAC March, will we be be once again shit on and be forced to march behind none Veteran Bodies such as the fire brigades, descendants, and young kids who have been in the Navy for 5 minutes?

Its going to be a very interesting few months ahead. DUTY FIRST!
G.   
 



 

 
 
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« Reply #194 on: Friday15May2009 »

This case is becoming a bit long winded. China knows the truth and he alone can put this to bed.

The question I ask, what is the Australian Police doing to remove his doubtful medals?

This case has become bigger that BEN HUR. There is many worthy needy Veterans who need your enegries into assisting them.

China is in reality a small wart on the skin of life and if we stop pointing him out to the public he may fade away or someone in power will stop him.

You should take note of your own advice Louis Butcher.  This thread has been dead for over a week, and now you start it up again.  I know of at least three web sites where you have trumpeted the same bullshit.  Thirty seven years later and you are still pissed off, and can't get over being detailed off to stand in and do a watch for China after he was given another job on the Fluffy Duck (HMAS SWAN).  What a miserable life you must have led, to still be whinging about China. As long as there are dipsticks like you bringing his name up, it won't go away.

The truth was laid out before the AAT and The VRB.  It was accepted by them, he has no need to answer to you or any other person on this site.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again for your benefit Butcher, if you or anyone else have something to complain about him, take it to the Federal Police. 
Peter Denver
« Last Edit: Friday15May2009 by Cassius » Logged
loibutcher
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« Reply #193 on: Friday15May2009 »

This case is becoming a bit long winded. China knows the truth and he alone can put this to bed.

The question I ask, what is the Australian Police doing to remove his doubtful medals?

This case has become bigger that BEN HUR. There is many worthy needy Veterans who need your enegries into assisting them.

China is in reality a small wart on the skin of life and if we stop pointing him out to the public he may fade away or someone in power will stop him.
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William
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« Reply #192 on: Thursday14May2009 »

Fergus

The only time I know of bodies in fridges was when they were packed in there after the Melbourne/Frank E. Evans collission. Don't know about ice though. The best case I have read in relation to your posting is the McDonald v Repatriation Commision at the AAT in Adelaide around July 2002(?) before Senior Member Purcell. After reading it I can tell you this the advocate from the VVA who represented him now sits on the SA Government's Veteran's Advisory Committee. One of the reasons I have no time for DVA trained advocates.

I was sent the following:


From: "Griffin, Alan (MP)" <Alan.Griffin.MP@aph.gov.au>
Date: 11 May 2009 10:09:37 PM
Cc: "Wood, Jason (MP)" <Jason.Wood.MP@aph.gov.au>, "McDonald, Taryn (J. Wood, MP)" <Taryn.McDonald@aph.gov.au>
Subject: Concern raised with Jason Wood re TPI status


Dear Wayne,

I am responding to a letter I recently received from Jason Wood MP, Member for La Trobe, regarding a concern you raised about potential changes in the status of TPI’s. 

In particular, you were of the belief that DVA officials have provided advice to a member of the VVAA that individual classifications as TPI are to be cancelled by my Department where veterans are classified as suffering from PTSD.

I want to make it very clear that no such change, or anything like it, is under consideration.  I would be very interested to ensure that this rumour is put to rest straight away.  Please pass on to anyone who has led you to believe that this will take place that the Minister rejects it completely.  If, in fact, any DVA employee has said such a thing I would be very keen to get their name in order to point out to them that they are wrong.  I must say I find it hard to believe that any DVA employee has come up with such a stupid idea.

I hope this resolves any concerns you have regarding this matter.

I have copied Jason in on this response.

Best wishes,



Alan Griffin MP

Federal Minister for Veterans’ Affairs

« Last Edit: Tuesday14July2009 by Cassius » Logged
William
Guest
« Reply #191 on: Tuesday12May2009 »

I have no idea what this wannabe "veteran" ding dong Bell is on about in her latest dribble to Australian Veteran Matters but here is her email to me in full as requested by her. The poor dear has evaded my question to her to point out to the members as to which one of my postings on this site states what she accuses me of. Must be losing her mables because now want's me to place on this website a copy of the posting she states says all of this. If anyone can find it on this website please post it for me so ding dong can have some joy in this world before her half a brain cell disintergrates from the pressure of expectation. A great example of an attempt at self vindication. I rest my case!

Cheers!



Ding Dong's Latest:

From: Jenny Bell
Date: 12/05/2009 3:58:41 PM
To: mglist@
Subject: Re: THE LATEST ON MAD AND DANGEROUS MARTINEK
 
I will answer the "Drivel" that you put up on your web site " William "  , which was supposedly "answering" me , (I note that you didnt include the whole of the email I sent too...why not ??  )........when you can PROVE what  YOU wrote about me !!...(and the thing is ....you cant , can you William !!!..)   your findings will fascinate me !!!  Good luck with that !
 
I have said my piece, its  up you , to prove  what you accuse me of , and if you cant ...then who can rely on , or believe , anything else you say Huh
 
 
Jenny Bell   

Ding Dong's Dribble In Full As Requested:

Hi Everyone ,
 
On the 5th of May,it was brought to my attention , that I have been discussed on the AVM (Queensland based ) web site ...the "post " on that web site , was then sent to me , and what you read below ,(between the red lines ),  is that post , supposedly said by  a person , calling himself ..."William", ....in answer to a question put to him , by someone  asking who Jenny Bell is .
 
While I wouldn't normally bother to answer such a load of fabricated rubbish, I have  decided to answer it , as "William" ,  has  acted lower than  the gutter he  crawled out of   , in that he  has  brought my deceased  husband into it , in a disgusting manner , ....and so today , on the one year anniversary of his death , (on Mother's Day ) , and because he is not here to defend me , or himself , I am  answering it !!
 
So in answer to your wild story about my life "William", where  you obviously decided not to let the truth get in the way  of a good story ., ...read my rebuttal ...and ALL of it can be proven !!!!
 
 
 
1)...I am not Dave Gabel's sister ,  I am  his Mother_in_law  !
 
2)...I have NEVER been to , lived in , or worked in Liverpool , in  my life !!
 
3)...I have never been a barmaid in my life !
 
4) ....I was  a hairdresser , from the age of 15, till I was 17 .
 
5 )  ...I have never  worked in a hospital in Gawler , in South Australia .
 
6)....My husband , was NEVER a resident in a nursing home , in fact "William", , although he was 73, he STILL worked in his own business, till the day he collapsed with a heart attack , (7th May 2008 ) and went to hospital, (passing away 3 days later ), on 10th May 2008 !!!!
 
7).....I am nearly 63 years old "William" , and my husband  was 12 years older than me , but even at 73 , he didn't sit around and winge about his lot , like some I could name !!
 
Cool....My  supposed .... " No evident connection to Vets Huh"....
 
Read on.....
 
Two Uncles who fought in WW11..(one in Kokoda & one in Borneo )
 
Four  cousins ( all brothers ), 2 of whom fought in Vietnam , 1 who was in Borneo , and one "koala (he says ) never to be exported or shot at " , who was a bomb disposal expert .(and in active Australian service till just a few years ago )
 
My husband's  two daughters , both served in the army, as did their husbands, ( one of them being Dave Gabel ....YEP , my son-in-law, NOT my brother )...........
 
And My husband, who was a "nasho"........(and who was , of course , too old to go to Vietnam !)
 
 
There-in lies my interest "William" , and that's why I feel strongly about Vet issues .
 
Am I a Big Mouth ? Yes  I am , and will always be, where I see Vets being "shredded " unjustly , by other Vets , or by any member of the public .
If you have read this far "William", then read   the poem , at the very bottom of this email...THAT is where I am coming from , and how I feel about  Vet issues .
 
"William" , ....I do know who you are !!  We have corresponded in the past,  as you well know , and your name is NOT  " William"......your  nasty little concocted lies , are because I associate with someone you detest.
 
I make up my own mind about the people I associate with "William", and I speak as I find.
What you are doing " William" , amounts to cyber stalking, be careful !!!
 
If this drivel you have written , is an example of the "fact finding ", done by members of AVM...then I wonder how anyone can believe anything on that web site !!!
Am I involved in the Mad Galahs & Orange ??....yes , and I find them a lot more honest , than you !
 How did you get it so wrong " William" ? Or are you just delusional Huh?
 
 
Jenny Bell ....
 
(aka  QUEEN BEE)
 
 ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
  Question............I have seen the name Jenny Bell a lot...who is she???"
 
 Quote.
 "The bigmouthed and forever interferring “Queen Bee” Jenny Bell, an
 NLA cohort, is reportedly Gabel’s sister"
 
 Former Soldier's watering hole, Railway Hotel Liverpool, barmaid up to
 1975 who claims she was a hairdresser at the time.
 
 It was initially suggested that she's the mother in law of Ex-Service
 Person's Support Network president Dave Gabel.  This misconception
 probably arose from the advanced age of her husband she purportedly
 snagged during purportedly aged care duties as a nurse at Gawler
 Hospital SA.  Purportedly she is not yet of retirement age.
 
 She has no evident connection to Vietnam veterans but chose to stick
 her unwanted head into veteran matters as a Corse, Briggs, Wiltshire,
 Mad Galah supporter on Allen Petersen's forum. There is a strong SPSN
 - Mad Galah connection."
_______________________________________________________________________
 
 Our Turn To Serve You . .........
(by Jenny Bell,.copyright 17/11/07 )
 
(With the greatest respect, for all my Vet friends )
 
 
I lived, removed for many years ,
From Veterans and their plight.
I didn't know , that just to live,
And to be heard , again they'd have to fight !
 
I would have thought, their wars were past,
And now , in peace they'd be .
Their courage,  and their valour, gave ,
A country where we're free .
 
It seems that in my ignorance,
I'd believed all that was true .
But now I find , it isn't so ,
There's more we need to do !
 
I think of them , and what they did ,
I'm filled with  admiration.
For their courage , valour , sacrifice ,
In service of their nation.
 
So now it's time, to give them back .
Some part of what they've lost.
For all that they , all gave to  us ,
No matter what the cost !
 
To those who gave their lives for us ,
On some forsaken foreign shore .
You gave your all, your life , your heart,
You could not have given more .
 
For those of you , who made it home ,
From world wars one , and two .
Your country did  you honour,
We were so proud of you .
 
You wore your medals proudly,
At your "Welcome Home Parade "
There were dinners in your honour,
Many thankful speeches made .
 
Now let's move it to "Fast Forward",
And see the contrast glare,
Our boys , home from Vietnam,
But the "Fanfare" wasn't there!
 
They didn't ask to go there !
To be sent into that fray !
It was our "Chosen Lords" deciding ,
"ALL THE WAY WITH LBJ " !!
 
It tore this country , coast to coast,
Burnt flags and demonstrations .
But still they did , as they were bid ,
And fought hard for our nation !
 
Horrific battles, fought and won,
In jungles , heat ,and mud .
In Australia's name , they fought and died ,
"Kokoda's Spirit" , in their blood !
 
So now the battle's over,
Of guns , there is no sound .
Their duty done , their battle fought,
And they are homeward bound .
 
So where was all the fanfare ??
The crowded streets ? The Big Parade ?
Where WAS this country's "welcome mat",
And passioned speeches made ?
 
Their ships berthed in the dead of night ,
The soldiers were sneaked ashore ,
"Now go home lads " and "Shut your mouths "
"We'll speak of this no more "
 
No "Ticker Tape ", no grateful thanks ,
Which really was their due ,
But cries of "Murderer", "Baby killer".
 We turned our backs on you .
 
This country stands , forever shamed ,
For it's actions in those years .
To our bloodied , weary , heroes,
Who'd fought , despite their fears !
 
They fought for you , they fought for me ,
With greatest courage shown .
And they say a soldier , cant find peace ,
When from war , he journeys home .
 
For all the horrors , and the deaths,
And sad things he has seen ,
Play on his heart , and on his mind ,
He's not the man he's been .
 
His sleep disturbed, with visions stark,
The sweats that come and go ,
He finds it hard , to cope , and live ,
With thoughts from long ago .
 
His mates , are where he finds his peace ,
They know what he's been through,
How could we imagine this ?
It's not happened to me, or you !
 
So now in time of need , he turns ,
To claim what is his due .
From a very "caring government",
Who promised they'd be true !
 
For all his selfless sacrifice,
They promised they'd be there ,
To lend support, to pay them back ,
For their courage , give them care !
 
The soldier's justice never came ,
Ignored and tossed aside !
Forgotten by his country now ,
He only had his pride !
 
So bowed , and bloodied, in defeat,
But not by any foe !
His country was his nemesis ,
Delivering the Mortal Blow !!
 
For the young , who don't remember,
And like me , the old,  who cant forget,
It's time we showed these diggers ,
That we , our past mistakes , regret !
 
So let us fight again together,
To give our diggers what is due ,
Ignite Kokoda's Spirit strong,
Now we will fight for YOU !!
« Last Edit: Friday15May2009 by William » Logged
William
Guest
« Reply #190 on: Tuesday12May2009 »

 
To One and All!

Straight from SA Police HQ regarding collecting for charity when not registered.

Apparently if an admittance of a crime or suspected crime is contained in an email then it is
inadmissable as evidence of that crime or suspision because even though the message may
have originated from ones computer unless their is irrefutable proof that the person whose
name appears on the email or owns the computer actually wrote and sent the email it is
only hearsay. Like when one can proove that at a certain time a phone call was placed to
or a phone call was made from a premise but you can't prove the owner of the premises
made it (I suppose unless tapped requiring voice analysis).

Before anything can be investigated re this matter, Maryann as President of SPSN or a Committee
Member will have to make a formal complaint. A person affected by this matter such assomeone
who has donated money to them in the name of charity or put money in the collection tin now
knowing they are/were not registered can also lodge a formal complaint.

Then again it may well only be a case of one person not listening and doing the wrong thing!

Cheers!

PS: Five off us turned up at the Repat Coffee Shop today in disguise loaded with plenty of
     film but alas no SPSN in sight. Have to wait to Thursday now because it has been stated
     that we are all going to be paid a visit and be thumped by many ill & mentally inflicted
     Veterans. Shit! (or something along those lines)
 
     Still waiting for the names and addresses of the ill and mentally affected Veterans I am
     supposedly have personnaly harrassed! By the way, have not had a response from Jenny "Ding Dong"
     Bell over her dribble I placed in a forum article.
« Last Edit: Wednesday13May2009 by Cassius » Logged
William
Guest
« Reply #189 on: Monday11May2009 »

 This brings credit to the Major's website. This is from the man himself, Mr. Derryn Hinch.
 
the damning letter

I do not intend to use my radio programme as a conduit for a war of words between me and the woman who has accused me of sexual assault and attempted to extort $50,000 from me in exchange for dropping all allegations and for a guarantee not to go to the Police.

Except when new allegations and falsehoods warrant a speedy response.

My accuser can now be identified. She is a former Army major, Mary-ann Martinek who was medically discharged from the army on the grounds that she was medically unfit to remain in the armed services on the grounds that she was “psychologically unfit”.

It turns out that Ms. Martinek has made claims of sexual harassment and stalking in the past.

Last week, Ms. Martinek and her lawyer, Wally Edwards, claimed she was not attempting to shake me down for money and there had been no attempt to blackmail me. Yesterday the Sunday Herald Sun ran a copy of a letter – written by Edwards and sanctioned by Martinek – that proved both were lying.

It said in part: 

“In respect of the sexual assault issue, we propose that your client pay our client an amount of $50,000. On settlement of the matter each party will enter into a strict confidentiality agreement.

“Should this proposal be amenable to to you, our client will not go public with her allegations against your client,  nor will she raise the sexual assault matter with the Police.”

If that is not extortion I don’t know what is. And we went straight to the Police.

Edwards went further in an interview with Neil Mitchell  on 3AW. (He at first said no such letter existed and no monetary threat was made.)

Edwards also categorically insisted that intercourse did take place that day. Martinek denies it. So do I. It is one of the few things we agree on.

The Herald Sun also prints part of an e-mail that Martinek sent to me in September last year – more than a year after the supposed assault and six more months before she went to the Police. It contains more lies and fantasies.

It was the first hint I had that something was up. To me it was so preposterous that I sent it to my lawyer and said something like “file this in a fantasy land file”.

In other developments:

Martinek has made claims of sexual harassment in the past – both inside and outside the Army. She used sexual harassment as the basis of an application for an AVO against another man. That application failed.

She owes more than $40,000 in court costs for a failed court case. 

She has, shall we say, a colourful past. One of her business projects is drawing and selling pornographic cartoons over the Internet. 

But the bottom line is that a woman tried to blackmail me for $50,000 in exchange for not going ahead with claims of a sexual assault which did not occur. 

And if I am such a “sexual predator” how come Police have not talked to me –  even by phone? 

Monday, April 3, 2006

©Copyright Derryn Hinch 2006
« Last Edit: Wednesday13May2009 by Cassius » Logged
William
Guest
« Reply #188 on: Monday11May2009 »

Members

After reading the latest crap from mm's website I have come to the conclusion after noticing this comment  "We are jumping with laughter here at our NewsRoom about the sorry attempt to sneak your wooden Trogan Horse inside our Little Yellow Submarine. You certainly know jackshit about feminine-style boobytraps!" in one of their engaging commentaries that they are a bunch of man-hating radicals that should shove a finger up their collective rear ends to stop the fluid from their dribble from escaping like it is stated in that story from Holland. Maybe this just reinforces all that is published about her when one Google's Maryann Martinek. A case of the pot calling the kettle black! Atleast I have never been a "Whistle Blower" or a "Scab" as we refered to persons like her on the warves!

Cheers!
« Last Edit: Monday11May2009 by William » Logged
William
Guest
« Reply #187 on: Monday11May2009 »

THIS IS THE LATEST DRIBBLE FROM THE SO-CALLED "QUEEN HONEY MAKER" Jenny "Ding Dong" Bell.

Jenny, this is the Australian Veterans Matters website. Please point out to me and for everyone else's benefit where in any of my postings on this site except for this one where it makes mention of your name or any of the dribble you have stated below. Been talking to MM have we! If you know who I am then please inform everyone who I am (I certainly know who I am and a lot of readers of this site know who I am)  and what has led you to this mind bogling discovery! It would I believe to have been more in your interest to have actually placed the actual post with the dribble instead of you putting in what you think should be stated.

Cheers!



Hi Everyone ,
 
On the 5th of May,it was brought to my attention , that I have been discussed on the AVM (Queensland based ) web site ...the "post " on that web site , was then sent to me , and what you read below ,(between the red lines ),  is that post , supposedly said by  a person , calling himself ..."William", ....in answer to a question put to him , by someone  asking who Jenny Bell is .
 
While I wouldn't normally bother to answer such a load of fabricated rubbish, I have  decided to answer it , as "William" ,  has  acted lower than  the gutter he  crawled out of   , in that he  has  brought my deceased  husband into it , in a disgusting manner , ....and so today , on the one year anniversary of his death , (on Mother's Day ) , and because he is not here to defend me , or himself , I am  answering it !!
 
So in answer to your wild story about my life "William", where  you obviously decided not to let the truth get in the way  of a good story ., ...read my rebuttal ...and ALL of it can be proven !!!!
 
 
 
1)...I am not Dave Gabel's sister ,  I am  his Mother_in_law  !
 
2)...I have NEVER been to , lived in , or worked in Liverpool , in  my life !!
 
3)...I have never been a barmaid in my life !
 
4) ....I was  a hairdresser , from the age of 15, till I was 17 .
 
5 )  ...I have never  worked in a hospital in Gawler , in South Australia .
 
6)....My husband , was NEVER a resident in a nursing home , in fact "William", , although he was 73, he STILL worked in his own business, till the day he collapsed with a heart attack , (7th May 2008 ) and went to hospital, (passing away 3 days later ), on 10th May 2008 !!!!
 
7).....I am nearly 63 years old "William" , and my husband  was 12 years older than me , but even at 73 , he didn't sit around and winge about his lot , like some I could name !!
 
Cool....My  supposed .... " No evident connection to Vets Huh"....
 
Read on.....
 
Two Uncles who fought in WW11..(one in Kokoda & one in Borneo )
 
Four  cousins ( all brothers ), 2 of whom fought in Vietnam , 1 who was in Borneo , and one "koala (he says ) never to be exported or shot at " , who was a bomb disposal expert .(and in active Australian service till just a few years ago )
 
My husband's  two daughters , both served in the army, as did their husbands, ( one of them being Dave Gabel ....YEP , my son-in-law, NOT my brother )...........
 
And My husband, who was a "nasho"........(and who was , of course , too old to go to Vietnam !)
 
 
There-in lies my interest "William" , and that's why I feel strongly about Vet issues .
 
Am I a Big Mouth ? Yes  I am , and will always be, where I see Vets being "shredded " unjustly , by other Vets , or by any member of the public .
If you have read this far "William", then read   the poem , at the very bottom of this email...THAT is where I am coming from , and how I feel about  Vet issues .
 
"William" , ....I do know who you are !!  We have corresponded in the past,  as you well know , and your name is NOT  " William"......your  nasty little concocted lies , are because I associate with someone you detest.
 
I make up my own mind about the people I associate with "William", and I speak as I find.
What you are doing " William" , amounts to cyber stalking, be careful !!!
 
If this drivel you have written , is an example of the "fact finding ", done by members of AVM...then I wonder how anyone can believe anything on that web site !!!
Am I involved in the Mad Galahs & Orange ??....yes , and I find them a lot more honest , than you !
 How did you get it so wrong " William" ? Or are you just delusional Huh?
 
 
Jenny Bell ....
 
(aka  QUEEN BEE)
 
 ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
  Question............I have seen the name Jenny Bell a lot...who is she???"
 
 Quote.
 "The bigmouthed and forever interferring “Queen Bee” Jenny Bell, an
 NLA cohort, is reportedly Gabel’s sister"
 
 Former Soldier's watering hole, Railway Hotel Liverpool, barmaid up to
 1975 who claims she was a hairdresser at the time.
 
 It was initially suggested that she's the mother in law of Ex-Service
 Person's Support Network president Dave Gabel.  This misconception
 probably arose from the advanced age of her husband she purportedly
 snagged during purportedly aged care duties as a nurse at Gawler
 Hospital SA.  Purportedly she is not yet of retirement age.
 
 She has no evident connection to Vietnam veterans but chose to stick
 her unwanted head into veteran matters as a Corse, Briggs, Wiltshire,
 Mad Galah supporter on Allen Petersen's forum. There is a strong SPSN
 - Mad Galah connection."
« Last Edit: Wednesday13May2009 by Cassius » Logged
William
Guest
« Reply #186 on: Sunday10May2009 »

Mowgli

Inform your good wife those "Snoops" who have just finished physio and hydrotherapy on Tuesday & Thursdays (the off days that the SPSN rabble are down there) for most are T&PI's and wear the regulation track suit or shorts. The WW2 guys wear mostly their 1940ish clothing and the younger Veterans look and dress as what they are, mostly kids!

Yes, a motley a crew if you ever saw one. Would make poor old Don Adams from Agent 99 fame roll over in his grave. By the way, Don Adams was a WW2 Veteran and maybe that's where these morons see a connection.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: Sunday10May2009 by William » Logged
William
Guest
« Reply #185 on: Sunday10May2009 »

Members

Here it is 11hrs after my last message and the latest from people is the MM as admin is still blocking right of reply to her personal articles on her website alluding to "Spooks" taking control of the streets.

Common courtesy would dictate a "Right of Reply" but I guess she doesn't know the meaning of it!

Keep Well!
 
« Last Edit: Sunday10May2009 by William » Logged
BC
Guest
« Reply #184 on: Saturday09May2009 »

I can see an unholy alliance forming, Mad Maryann Martinek and the Galahs/NLA. Can anyone else here picture it?  M3 exhibiting paranoia about the dreaded ANZMI lurkers clinched it for me.  She’s not a wannabe as far as I can see so what’s her problem? 
Perhaps it formed earlier and M3 has done the job on the SPSN at their bidding?  “Cop that Paul Dignon” “Cop that George Craig” “Cop that ANZMI lurkers” 
“Cambodia Dave” Briggs has always stood out amongst men. See pic 1 attached.
Through his Mad Galah mate Barry Corse, he involved himself heavily in the business of a supposedly discarded rifle at a major battle. It was almost as if he had used Corse to broach the subject and was then ready to follow up at a moment’s notice.  His control over Corse had been previously noted.
After a former forensics copper mate had stated that the Briggs in the Pucka pic and the later life pic are exactly the same man,
I wrote to him privately and asked him WTF he thought he was doing.
I wrote about us being in the same platoon at Pucka in late 69 and how I remembered him as a young Nasho who always looked schmick on parade, less the spit job on his shoes. I also remembered him as being a tad useless, his Army records use slightly harsher terms.
He denied he was in 6 Pl B Coy Pucka 1969 and denied knowledge of blokes I mentioned who were in the Pl at the same time. The admission would have scrambled up the timings for his RAE and 5RAR two tours b/s.
Attached.
Pic 1  His first day at Pucka, fresh off the bus from Marrickville.
Pic 2  Briggs at top, tallest man in the platoon. No one could recognise the other faces now.
Pic 3  In later life, around 2007.
BC.


* Pic_3.jpg (6.47 KB, 164x228 - viewed 676 times.)

* Pic_2.jpg (64.67 KB, 106x677 - viewed 727 times.)

* Pic_1.jpg (237.24 KB, 681x935 - viewed 749 times.)
« Last Edit: Saturday09May2009 by BC » Logged
D371
Guest
« Reply #183 on: Saturday09May2009 »

Hi,

As an Advocate I have no problem with DVA investigating the truth of any veterans claims.

For more than 10 years I have had problems with "Writeway" providing an opinion and that is where their so called "investigation" fails at the VRB and AAT.

They are tasked to research official records only which includes Cmdr's Diaries etc.

Their opinions are worth duck shit. They were not present at that time, so it means nothing and DVA have wasted taxpayers money once again
Logged
Zion
Administrator
Active Member


Karma: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 371


« Reply #182 on: Saturday09May2009 »

Dave Briggs is either completely delusional and psychotic or he is a pathological liar. Maybe he is a combination.

To read up about this Cambodian war hero and secret agent you can go here

http://www.austvetmatters.net/briggs.html

http://www.austvetmatters.net/Docs/briggsupdate13march09.doc

http://www.austvetmatters.net/davidbriggs.html

http://www.austvetmatters.net/Docs/mowglionmadgalahs.doc


We don't have to fabricate our information. The mad galahs more than provide all we need. Our information is taken from their own emails and from their official Service records.

We didn't write their Service history and we didn't write their emails.
Logged

dodger39
Guest
« Reply #181 on: Saturday09May2009 »

Unlless there's something wrong with my browser, it looks like the SPSN site has disappeared.
Logged
Mowgli
Guest
« Reply #180 on: Saturday09May2009 »

WTF is this woman on about?  
Tonight's moon phase is two days after full, so we can't blame that. Did she go completely off her rocker when Derryn said "Not even with that bloke's d*** sweetheart"  Is it all men she hates or only those ANZMI oppos lurking behind the hospital pot plants?
Bugger it, I'll send her some names in the hope of choccie bear rewards.

Mowgli
Logged
Ethelred
Guest
« Reply #179 on: Saturday09May2009 »

Jesus.

Am I seeing things? This mob of conspiracy theorists are more off their rockers than I thought they were. I misjudged their madness.

Now as for poor old Briggsy, dontcha just feel so sorry for him, he who cries wolf and condemns others for what he does himself. There's nothing like a good ole smoke screen. This fraud and sheister who has run weeping and wailing tears to the DVA Minister is as weak as. Does he forget that it was him who attacked and defamed ill TPIs and others for two years or so and he would still be doing it except he has been outed by this excellent website for being the nothing and ratbag he is.

This fake, who won the Vietnam war almost single handed [ just ask his mate Barry Corse for the details ] who did secret operations in Cambodia, who was a secret ASIO agent, who murdered an Australian officer....who...well...you get the picture----now wants all and sundry to listen to his weeping and wailing.These politicians must get sick to the teeth of the nonsense from the mad galahs.

Oh, so he is working in with madwoman Martinek....figures. Birds of a feather. Feathers really don't suit you as much as Mary though Dave.

This is a clear case of pot, kettle, black.

The Veterans and others this malingerer viciously attacked never went crying to the DVA Minister. They stood up, ignored his ranting and raving, even though it must have been very hard for them and their families, and got on with life.

Briggs you are a dill of an ex Soldier, dill of a former copper and an even worse dill of a Veteran.

Phone lifeline, don't cry on my shoulder.
Logged
dodger39
Guest
« Reply #178 on: Saturday09May2009 »

Watch out, the spies are now in the Solicitors Room

from RawVeteranNews

RawVeteranNews: We have been investigating this Mr and Mr and Mr Team who live in lovely Syd-eny. What a rort these three are constructing. Yes! we list them too because their conduct of late is against any code of legal or ethical decency we would expect of any ill TPI veterans. Their collection method is this - one will email claiming to be helping a veteran who is unable to help himself and explains how sad and sorry their lives have been and that SO MANY ill veterans are suffering and are badly treated by the Red tape of DVA. We “have enough names to mount a Class Action!” is the ploy and “we are represented by the eminent exSuperLegalHound too” who sat with the NSW Bar (and they give someone’s name). In fact we are surprised they are not suggesting they have found time to approach the recently jailed NSW Judge because he now has alot of spare time these days, and his rates might be cheaper. Instead they boldly ask the ill Aussie Digger they email to furnish them with any personal Affidavits which they say they need to support their next Legal Action. OK, so RawVeteranNews rang the legal representative they claimed to be practicing at the Peoples Solicitor in NSW and left a message for the barrister (they say) representing their matters to call us back to explain why this band of ANZMI suspect agents are approaching ill TPI veterans and asking for copies of their court documents. WE RECEIVED NO RESPONSE! Speaks volumes.

WE at RawVeteranNews now warn you all about this approach method, and we say DO NOT share your legal affidavits with anyone! without a strict caveat of Non Disclosure to control the purpose of its use. It may be your private life you are handing over to a suspected NSW ANZMI agent, that you paid your life savings to your solicitor to produce as evidence for your own Injury Claim court action.

We cannot name this trio, so we will nickname them for you as MR MOE, MR CURLY and MR JOE.

If you or your advocate is approached by any person claiming they are doing so on the advice of their solicitor, TAKE their names and contact us! or, send your correspondence in to our Private Forum at


Do these idiots realise the damage they are doing.
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Fergus
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« Reply #177 on: Saturday09May2009 »

Krt1

One Mad Galah has been found in the hen house, he sent an email to the Prime Minister of Australia today about Maryann's coffee lurkers.

Kevin will be mortified as it is well known he enjoys a good brew, but is definately not fond of fruit cakes.

This is what Briggsy, the gritty Mad Galah and hero of Cambodia wrote today.

 From: Briggsy
To: undisclosed-recipients
Cc: MP ALP Alan Griffin(Minister VA) ; MP ALP Gary.Gray ; MP ALP Julia Gillard ; MP ALP Kevin.Rudd (PM) ; MP ALP Mike.Kelly ; MP Julie.Bishop. ; MP Louise.Markus
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 4:03 PM
Subject: Fw: maryann martinek AUSTRALIAN VETERAN MATTERS (AVM): Subject: NEWS JUST IN


I like a number of others engaged in the fight for veteran rights have been singled out by these mindless and gutless maggots because they have nothing more productive to do with their waste of space lives
 
As stated they attack the weak and defenseless as well as anyone who dares stand up and expose them for the maggots they are. Their tactics favour the manipulation of inaccurate military files and despite them being proven over and over to be inaccurate and misleading, take no heed. Some of these inaccuracies have been acknowledged in our parliament only to have these gutless and nameless maggots call the parliamentarians liars.
 
If this doesn't alert you to the mentality of these morons I don't know what will. I refuse to publicly debate or challenge their so called facts, because they have no credibility in anyones eyes, except the anti ANZAC group they represent
 
There are various actions currently in play to eradicate these maggots from the ANZAC community, which I will not elude to at this point. However anyone suffering injustices and stress at the hands of these mindless morons should make an official complaint to either the DVA or the Minister direct
 
This minister and the DVA have a legal and moral responsibility to every veteran under their care to protect your future welfare and this is clearly part of that responsibility   
 
                                 
Regards Briggsy

The stupidity of this group knows no bounds, this whole episode is a storm in a coffee cup. Because like minded people find each other, it was inevitable that Maryann would find the Mad Galahs.

Aye

Fergus
« Last Edit: Saturday09May2009 by Fergus » Logged
SKY
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« Reply #176 on: Saturday09May2009 »

Guys;

I just saw a man at the shopping centre talking on a mobile phone.

I think he must be an ANZMI agent.

Take care - they're everywhere!

Sky
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Peter Gregory
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« Reply #175 on: Saturday09May2009 »

Is this maryann martinek playing with a full deck?  Coffee shop spies for ANZMI?  I can't believe anyone would post such drivel.

Pathetic

Chief
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Mowgli
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« Reply #174 on: Saturday09May2009 »

I read the Mad Major's blurb to my fashion conscious wife and she wants to know what S.A. hospital coffee shop snoops - lurkers are wearing this season. Any advice appreciated.

Mowgli
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Fergus
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« Reply #173 on: Saturday09May2009 »

This afternoon I had tea and fruit cake on the patio and the fruit cake was an immediate reminder of an email of earlier today.
 
Ex Army Major Maryann Martinek who may or may not be a member of SPSN, depending on the position of the moon, now sees ANZMI agents lurking in the shadows of the Daw Park Hospital in Adelaide spying on the coffee habits of veteran patients.
 
Maryann has an interesting history and Mr Google will provide some information regarding that history.
 
What the hell the SPSN scandal currently being played out in South Australia has to do with ANZMI is anybody’s guess.
 
Maryann should be aware that information like this can be harmful to veteran’s health.  I certainly nearly painfully and mortally split my sides with laughter and others may do the same.  “Split sides” is not an accepted disability as far as DVA is concerned, however she could be successfully sued under a Public Liability claim, for causing uncontrollable mirth on the Internet.
 
Here is the email
 
Message: suspected SA ANZMI agent hangs out in RGH Daw Park’s coffee shop
 
RawVeteranNews: We advise all ill aussie diggers who are being approached by a TPI veteran living in SA that he is conducting his ANZMI enquiries from the RGH Daw Park Hospital. Put yourself on notice now! Be aware that these snoops are lurking near the RGH coffee shop where they prop themselves up beside a wall, near some pot plant and watch YOU! and your interactions with other veterans attending for treament. Men eh? Our snoop has about 5 mates who are his eyes and ears and these Gossip Mongers take it in turns to watch you - they then race for their phones to relay what they see or observe back to our suspected ANZMI agent. These snoops are peddling misinformation about YOU which will often compell a right of reply. What life do they have of their own? Who knows but it is their pursuit of ill Diggers that is their latest cyber-stalking craze at RGH. Any interesting veteran information collected on you is passed from the ANZMI suspect SA agent (via a forum post) to the ANZMI website and becomes the info you provided to them in your own Right of Reply which is why they post up all the emails you write, it narrowly steps around the legal threats from any defamation action. We at RawVeteranNews doubt it will step around the NEW Privacy Laws and Human Rights Charters we anticipate is the next Federal Government roll-out plan. DO NOT drink coffee at RGH Daw Park unless you believe your conduct there will not attract our snoop’s attentions. This is one of those occasions where it’s BEST! to brew and bring your own coffee from home. AND KEEP your personal information private, between you and your trusted doctor, friends and family.
 
 
Regards,
The maryann martinek  AUSTRALIAN VETERAN MATTERS (AVM) Team.
 
Maryann we look forward to more of your enlightening warnings against the perils facing veterans in the form of coffee  “lurkers’ at RGH Daw Park.
 
Aye
 
Fergus
« Last Edit: Saturday09May2009 by Cassius » Logged
Nuidat68
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« Reply #172 on: Friday08May2009 »

Cobber if they live by the sword then they will die by the sword. These are the sort of wankers that made me not want to go to RSL's as these sorts spread like a cancer. And if im correct they only had one & half ambushes in Timor, buggered if i heard of any big contacts in the peace keeping of Timor. This Ding Dong Bell sheila is a real loony tune and she was never going anywhere with in the RETURNED servicemen we dont take kindly to loud mouth would be's, she is nothing more than a serial PEST.  Angry
Nui Dat 68
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« Reply #171 on: Friday08May2009 »

G'DAY ALL

As we have mentioned wrong way in other posts i thought members might be interested in this info?

G.


Subject: Len Avery Calling - Re; Writeway Research Services

Good morning Possums and Friends,

The purpose of this message is to remind you of an organisation called "Writeway Research Services"  (Writeway) of 41 Tuross Blvd, Tuross Head, NSW.

Writeway has a contract with the Department of Veterans' Affairs (DVA) to "investigate" claims made by veterans, current and former members of the Australian Defence Force (ADF).

Writeway and DVA are in a commercial relationship and Writeway and its researchers make money out of providing opinions in relation to service and events that occurred during that service. The relationship is set out in a formal contract.  Strict protocols, and of course relevant legislation, limit what Writeway may do in the course of its investigations. However, a reasonable person might draw the conclusion that Writeway is motivated more by commercial imperative than by providing an objective finding in relation to a veteran who is unknown to Writeway.

Initially, Writeway referred to its investigators as "historians" and "researchers" but as none of them had the necessary qualifications or practiced as historians or researchers. Writeway was therefore forced by pressure from the veteran's community to use the term "investigators". Whether DVA's use of Writeway is appropriate and whether the actions of Writeway's investigators are appropriate has been the subject of much debate with the veteran's community and within State and Federal Parliaments. It is only fair therefore to state that in December 2008, following initiating complaints by veterans from around Australia, the Qld Govt Ombudsman determined that the Qld Government's Office of Fair Trading had made a correct decision in finding that there was nothing improper in the relationship between Writeway Research Services  and the Department of Veterans' Affairs.

A Google search will reveal much of that debate for those not previously aware and for an example of some of the material available, please refer to the message pasted below my signature block in black.

Some years ago, the Director of "Writeway Research Services", John Tilbrook, and 'investigators' from "Writeway Research Services" made contact with me and the 161 Association seeking assistance in contacting specific members of 161 Recce Flt and 161 (Indep) Recce Flt as part of "their" investigation.  I understand that John Tilbrook is a retired Army Major who employs a range of retired Defence Force personnel from each Service as investigators.  Most, but not all of the investigators, are Vietnam veteran's and almost exclusively they are retired Officers'. The extent and nature of John Tilbrook's Army service is unknown.

With the approval of the relevant 161 members I was able to put 'investigators' from Writeway in contact with those 161 members who the 'investigators' wanted to speak to. Although the 'investigators' indicated that they were investigating a claim by a veteran, not necessarily a member of 161, they advised that their 'task' was to seek out evidence to support or reject a claim by the veteran.

Unfortunately, your Association's experience is that some of the 'investigators' hold a pre-conceived opinion in relation to specific claims and there has been little to no feed-back from the 'investigators' after they had completed their 'investigation'. This means that there was no way of knowing if we were assisting the veteran or providing information to the 'investigator' that may result in a veteran's claim being rejected.

For quite some time now, there has not been any contact with 'investigators' from Writeway. However, in recent weeks I have been contacted by two Writeway investigators seeking information or contact with one or more of our 161 members.  In response, I advised each investigator that under no circumstances will I assist or provide contact details of any 161 Recce Flt or 161 (Indep) Recce Flt member to any investigator from Writeway.

To say that my responses to the Writeway investigators has not been well received would be an understatement. However, I have a real problem with Vietnam Veteran's acting for financial gain in this manner. The bottom line is that Writeway is contracted to investigate claims by Veterans and provide a written report to DVA who in turn use the report in making a determination about the initiating claim.  The issue arising is not the investigation itself, because plainly DVA have the relevant responsibility, but rather the objectivity and professionalism of Writeway.

I have absolutely no problem assisting veterans, irrespective as to whether they are a 161 member or not.  Nor would I have any problem assisting the widow of a veteran who is seeking a War Widow's Pension through Veteran's Affairs. However, I will not assist any investigator from Writeway in their investigation into a claim by a veteran or a widow of a veteran.

It is not appropriate for me to breach the privacy of Members of 161 Recce Association by providing information without permission. Neither was it ever the purpose or intent of the 161 Recce Association to act in that manner. Therefore, if you as an individual make a claim to DVA and are asked by DVA to substantiate the claim in any way, you can certainly contact me and in the strictest confidentiality, I will endeavour to assist you in any appropriate manner possible. That may include establishing contact with other members of our Association with whom you served.

It is your Association's advice that you should be very careful about what you say or write in response to any approach from any investigator from Writeway. This is regardless of whether the claim affects you or somebody else.

In general, a veteran and any current or former serving Member of the ADF who seeks compensation or rehabilitation by way of an initiating claim to DVA should only do so after seeking the advice of a properly qualified and experienced advocate or representative of an established Ex-Service Organisation (ESO).

The 161 Recce Association Branches in part exist to provide such information and if they are not able to help in the first instance, then the Branch or you the individual should contact the Association's NAB for assistance, which is readily available.

Remember if your claim is rejected then you should again consult the ESO which assisted you in the first instance as you may have an entitlement to appeal for a review by the Veterans' Review Board, the Administrative Appeals Tribunal or even into the Federal Court.  Such reviews require applications to be made in accordance with specific timetables.

In summary of the above, it is the recommendation of the 161 National Committee that all members of the 161 Recce Association consider very carefully who they approach and accept as an Advocate to process a claim on their behalf. It is from experience that it is much more beneficial to have an Advocate who you can readily relate to and where possible have a face to face contact.

Regards, Len Avery

Assistant Secretary - National Administrative Body,

161 Recce Association. 

-------------------------------------

The  Google search of Writeway Research Services will reveal lots of material on the company.

The email below  was obtained at:

< http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/FADT_CTTE/estimates/bud_0607/def/ans_dva_att_q15_email_jun06.pdf >

and is part of a Senate Committee enquiry.  In addition you'll see that the email is given a security rating of "Sec = Unclassified" so have no qualms whatsoever about using it in full or in part for it is on the public record. The message sets out the basis of the legal arrangement between Writeway and the Department and is quite instructive.

From: Pirani, Paul

Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:49 AM

To: Sutherland, Kerryn (NAT)

Cc: Ludwig, Vicki; Kalagayan, Norman; Harrison, Ted

Subject: RE: Writeway Research Services - Request for information from the Office of Fair Trading - QLD [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Kerryn

The legal position is as follows. Writeway is contracted by the Repatriation Commission and the Commonwealth of Australia to:

".....provide advice on preparing a report arranged by the Repatriation Commission or the Department. The report will be on claims of events

experienced, witnessed or believed for people entitled under the Veterans' Entitlements Act 1986 to claim for disability pension or service pension.".

The legal framework under the Veterans' Entitlements Act 1986 (VEA) which involves the activities of Writeway is as follows.   A claim for disability pension is made under sections 14 and 15 of the VEA and lodged with the Department (see section 5T).  That claim for pension must be in writing and on the approved form.  The claim must be accompanied by relevant evidence about the incapacity claimed and the alleged link to war-service.  Section 17 of the VEA requires that the Secretary of the Department "shall cause an investigation to be made into the matters to which the claim or application relates". On completion of the investigation, subsections 17(2)&(3) of the VEA requires that the Secretary cause the claim and other relevant evidence to be forwarded to a delegate of the Repatriation Commission for determination.

The Department (on behalf of the Repatriation Commission) is able to engage contractors to assist in the performance of functions under the VEA (see section 181).  Subsection 181(5) of the VEA provides that such contractors are not to be regarded as employees.  However, the contract for services imposes a range of legal obligations on Writeway including that they must comply with all relevant Commonwealth, State and Territory laws that could apply to their activities. In addition, as a "Commonwealth contractor" they have a number of other transparency and accountability criteria that they must comply with in relation to the manner in which they perform their services under the services Agreement.

Tying the above together, it is apparent that Writeway is engaged to assist both the Secretary in undertaking investigations into historical events arising from war-service relating to claims under the VEA and to provide evidence for consideration by delegates of the Repatriation Commission in relation to those events.

The above task does NOT involve any role in relation to the investigation of claims for incapacity that would be undertaken by private investigators that involve video taping persons or asking questions about current or even recent events.  The task that is allocated is merely to examine allegations that certain events took place during war-service and providing historical reports as to whether or not there is any evidence in Defence records and other sources to indicate whether or not a particular event took place and whether or not the claimant was actually involved or witnessed that event.  The resultant report is then placed before a delegate of the Repatriation Commission to assist in the making of decisions on eligibility for disability and service pension (ie "qualifying service") entitlements under Parts II, II and IV of the VEA.

The resultant report then becomes a part of the body of evidence that is referred to in the decision of the delegate of the Repatriation Commission and is available to the claimant.  On review of any decision by the Veterans' Review Board and the Administrative Appeals Tribunal the historical report is also a relevant document that is required to be made available in those public reviews.

I trust that the above assists.

Paul Pirani

Acting General Manager, Business Integrity Division
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Zion
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« Reply #170 on: Friday08May2009 »

This whole dodgy, smelly SPSN matter is typical of the people involved in the orange movement, mad galahs and of course the SPSN.

I have always found that those who throw the most and biggest stones have the biggest skeletons in the cupboard, and I have always found that truth ultimately wins the day.

The SPSN was always a shonky organisation which was set up, not to serve underprivileged and needy ex Servicemembers, but to serve the financial and ego interests of most if not all of the founders. Money was to be made, and always follow the money if you want to get to the truth of matters.

The whole messy saga would take volumes to analyse in detail so I will be brief.

In early 2006 Paul Dignon leapt to prominence in the media, crying poor and foul about his treatment by the Military and the Department of Veterans Affairs. He revved people up emotionally and started the Orange movement, not to help others but to push his own flawed case with DVA. He encouraged Veterans to protest on Anzac Day to boost his grievances.

This shonk was originally denied the TPI because of his poor evidence at the VRB where he blatantly lied. He is a Timor Veteran but he spent all his time in Dili as what was really the movements clerk on Dili wharf. He was recently granted the TPI at the AAT, so we assume he appealed the VRB decision and it was overturned to grant him the TPI. So be it, we can't accuse the AAT of anything but we can accuse Dignon of being a cunning, miserable liar who used anybody he could to get what he wanted, and who, in the process, mercilessly attacked innocent Veterans, politicians, Ex Service organisations and the media, accusing them of all sorts of things including official corruption and paedophilia. This germ has no ethics and no principles and now it seems the chickens are coming home to roost because it seems he has been skimming money off the top of SPSN donations tin.

In all his misbehaviour and flurries of misinformation this bloke, who spent most of his service as a part time Soldier, was ably and willingly assisted by the mad galahs, in particular Corse, Briggs, Wiltshire, Craig, Keith Joyce and the infamous Molly Muller. At one time his SA AAT Advocate was Ron Coxon, from the SA VVAA. We understand Wiltshire was in there somewhere offering advice to Dignon. Wiltshire travelled to SA last year to visit his colleagues in the SPSN.

Dignon didn't initially tell DVA he owned two houses when he was granted the invaliidity Service Pension and didn't inform DVA he sold one of the houses.

Craig and Dignon are both a slimy duo who attacked genuine, decent Veterans on many occasions, and it was obvious to me at the time why they were doing so. They were acting out the well known script. Attack others, create a smokescreen and take the heat off yourself and your own behaviour and activities.

This whole SPSN house of cards is crumbling down and included in this house is the house of mad galahs because all these characters are intertwined and known to each other through their activities for the last 3 years.

We wonder if the DVA special investigation unit is aware of Dignons alleged income from the SPSN fund raising? According to Maryann Martinek of the SPSN, he has been skimming 40% off the top.

Dignon will go to ground as usual with depression the poor boy, and avoid all scrutiny.

This mob of wannabes and frauds, the whole lot of them and not just the SPSN, is not just an acute embarrassment to all of us and the Military but is a filthy stain on our reputations and characters as War Veterans and ex Servicemembers.
« Last Edit: Friday08May2009 by Cassius » Logged

Fergus
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« Reply #169 on: Friday08May2009 »


Is the information shown in the email below true?  It is appalling that a committee member of an ex service persons organization would “cream” 40% off the top of donations received for the organization. This SPSN affair is now a scandal and it is not over yet. 


xxxxx,

I was not aware Paul Dignon had TPI status and this makes it even more serious that he was taking 40% out of collections and not declaring it as income. The other person who accepted that income has been told by me to declare it to DVA immediately since he is suspended and I am suspended for noticing the collections irregularities. I have not seen the audit report but i suspect the money on this form which was declared is incomplete or inaccurate.

Thank you for copying your response to me that you provide in response to this rubbish. I apologise if you see SPSN events played out in the RGH coffee shop as a rabble, I guess it is an accurate opinion to be making.

maryann

Perhaps a committee member of the SPSN (if there are any left) may wish to provide a detailed explanation of the cause of the destruction of the quasi ex services organisation.

Aye

Fergus
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Fergus
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« Reply #168 on: Friday08May2009 »

 
The verbal battle rages in South Australia between SPSN executives. Everyone is sacking everyone and no one is taking any notice.

The committee reckons the “Major” lady has lost her marbles and the “Major” lady has suspended everyone and made herself the boss because the committee have been naughty.

From its genesis this quasi organisation was destined for an earthy demise because of the quality of the people running it.

The main players have been Dave Gabel, George Craig, Paul Dignon and more recently Maryann  Martinek.  All of these people are connected with the Mad Galahs. 

Gabel’s connection is a bit tenuous, but he is related to the legendary (in her own lunch time) Jenny Bell, the non veteran Mad Galah who is a master of cliche`s and makes idiotic comment on veterans matters about which she knows nothing.

Dignon was the mastermind behind the failed self serving Orange Movement (OM). After its failure, many of the former OM disciples gathered around Corse, Briggs and Wiltshire to become the ultra conspiracy theorists known as the  Mad Galahs.

George Craig the wannabe Priest served in Vietnam with Wiltshire at 5 Coy RAASC Workshops and these two indulge in a mutual  admiration society.

Martinek is a person made famous by her strange behaviour. She called “foul” when sidelined by the Army and was subsequently discharged. She had to make a very public and humiliating apology to a high profile media personality for falsely accusing him of rape. She is part of the Mad Galahs and works through the discredited Allan Petersen email network.

This is not a team that I would select to run even a sausage sizzle let alone an ex services support network.

They have come to grief – that is what was expected. May the funeral be expedient, the grave deep and their demise permanent. 

Here are some recent riveting communications between SPSN committee members:


On 07/05/2009, at 12:17 AM, Paul Dignon wrote:

Dear All,

I have no idea what is must be going through Maryann’s head at this moment. She is fully aware that she has been formally suspended from 4 May 09 and holds no position within the SPSN (see attached).

Further E Mails from her to many different addressees that continually tell different stories to different people have been sent around the traps over the last few days. It is quite obvious that there has been a good attempt to play people off against each other but it couldn’t be described as a great attempt.

I can only suggest that her E Mail address is blocked to save further angst for Maryann, as replying or even reading these types of letters will only add fuel to the fire, often worsening the condition.

Reading her messages below, it appears that she has suspended George Craig based on some sort of complaint received from xxxxxxxxxxx (?). Please be assured that as per the advice of Dave Gabel, and the concurrence of the entire Committee, George has not been suspended for any reason whatsoever.

I honestly hope that Maryann slows down for long enough for her to realise that she may be unwell and I hope that she seeks medical advice as soon as she can.

Many Regards

P.M. DIGNON
Committee Member
SPSN

And another:

From: maryann martinek <studiomartinek@bigpond.com>

Date: 7 May 2009 12:20:03 AM

To: "Paul Dignon" <pauldignon@iprimus.com.au>

Cc: Terry Monten <monten@picknowl.com.au>, 'Dave Gabel' <fisho1dave@iprimus.com.au>, Chris Lucas <chris.lucas03@bigpond.com>, George Craig <georgewc@chariot.net.au>, Shane Hawksworth <hawksworth@bridgeonline.com.au>, Steve Button <rooster_five@hotmail.com>, Jeff Howlett <jeffhowlett1@bigpond.com>

Subject: Re: SPSN suspension notice

Dear Committee Members,

I have not recieved various responses from Paul. My email is not blocked as he is suggesting. The important response is one to cease his activities in a better manner than he is engaging in. The most recent request is:

Dear Paul,

I make a request on behalf of the affected parties who have been subjected to your conduct over the past few days so that all be permitted access to the facilities of a professional Mediator.

It is my view that any outstanding issues you have decided will warrant an investigation of unruly conduct can be advanced in a private and sensible forum that a professional mediator would provide.

My understanding is such a facility might be a free service and if it is not the I suggest the SPSN formally consider a mediator as being the more sensible approach.

The affected members include:

George Craig, Dave Gabel, and myself.

I have taken the liberty of including all parties affected by your recent decisions, as addressees in this email to you. The agenda would be that a committee meeting be convened after a mediator has settled any outstanding matters regarding items of business that you have raised in this document (attached). You can also officially apologize in writing to George Craig if you feel he is been unduly affected by any decision you took to investigate his conduct of collection on Anzac day. Additionally, a mediator can be delivered documents that form the background to why you feel it necessary to appoint yourself as a Chairman of an unauthorised caretaking committee under our Constitution.

I am quite concerned you feel the need to take matters into your own hands so I believe the official committee should understand mediation to manage the issues you wish to raise. An outcome can be discussed and presented so that members who wish to resign can do so without harming their standing or reputation.

yours faithfully,
maryann martinek
Vice-President SPSN

There will have been good people innocently involved with the SPSN, they are urged to cut their losses and join more reputable and genuine ex Service Groups. The time and energy these people donate is greatly appreciated by the ex services and veteran community.

Aye

Fergus


« Last Edit: Friday08May2009 by Cassius » Logged
Savage1
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« Reply #167 on: Thursday07May2009 »

The collection of money on Anzac Day was done without the approval of Lotteries & Gaming. When the department was contacted they said the small amount of money collected was not of concern.  And yes Major "Mary" has taken over and either suspended members or given them the boot.  Its a pity because atleast one person I know was only trying to help other vets.
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Ethelred
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« Reply #166 on: Wednesday06May2009 »

Fergus this may interest all readers. This was Dave Gabel sending a cynical and boastfull email to Neil James last year regarding how successful the SPSN allegedly was, despite much criticism it had received about the integrity of the executive members involved and their behaviour.

From: Dave Gabel
To: execdir
Sent: Monday, 16 June 2008 12:42 PM
Subject: Re QUISLINGS DESERVE CONTEMPT


Hello again Neil,

Thanks for the pat on the back, but I’ve only reiterated what I’ve been saying all along.  In any case I doubt if those whom I was addressing will pay any attention;  they are too entrenched in their soporific daydreams.

On the plus side however, our association is up and doing very well at the moment.  We have several invitations to present ourselves to the local community, are being accepted widely by our client base due to our one-on-one mentoring processes, and have been successful in obtaining sales rights for products which have until recently been the province of only one other organisation.

I can only thank my hard working committee and membership for these achievements.  Particularly dedicated to our aims are my Vice President, Paul Dignon and my mother-in-Law, Jenny Bell.  They have been a great source of strength and inspiration to me.

Cheers,

Dave G
« Last Edit: Wednesday06May2009 by Samsung » Logged
CA
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« Reply #165 on: Wednesday06May2009 »

One never knows, someday we might read about an Army veteran getting a “Hammal Second Chop” at a TPI for stressors he didn’t rely on initially because he and his advocate knew damn well they wouldn’t have stood up due to previous overuse by other obvious liars.

PD.
“There are also three blue envelopes clearly marked "DO NOT OPEN."    The dates the masks were applied were in October 2003, which is 30 years after the date of some of the documents contained in the blue envelopes as listed on the covers of the envelopes.
China had absolutely no authority to have these documents expunged or "Masked" and he does not know who did.   Whoever did it, had a reason for doing it.  I have no idea what is contained in them, as I have never asked him.  It is none of my business.   But it is curious and interesting that a lowly stoker in the RAN in 1973 would have 3 sections of his service file still sealed after all this time, isn't it?”


“The dates the masks were applied were in October 2003”
Timeline.
2001. CPMH begins to look at Hammal.
2002. Obtains basic RAN service cards. Reports dribble in.
2003 (early) CPMH extends it group of supporters but still unable to get at his complete file. CPMH exerts greater and naturally more overt pressure to get it. Hammal obviously alerted to what was going on. Russell Offices staff protect him and refuse to release anything to anyone, even serving RAN personnel can’t get near his file. More than sufficient documentation to prove a case obtained.
2003 Oct. Parts of Hammal file sealed.
2003 24 Dec. Hammal appears on the website with selected RAN documents displayed. Other documents retained for possible future use.

National Archives personnel decide what may and may not be released under FOI.  Even documents allowed for publication sometimes have a paper cover strip covering lower sections on which is printed “expunged”  Normally the entries are within the thirty year privacy limit.
Extremely private personal or family information will never be released. Knowing that Hammal had friends at Russell Offices suggests he could have made arrangements for even inconsequential documents to be sealed.  Maybe another load of forgeries. Maybe old family recipes. Who knows what explanation he could have used to con gullible staff into compliance while actually acting in unlawful manner.
If anyone believes Hammal’s sealed documents contain details of forty year old Ramboesque secret ops in mysterious far away lands, that’s all well and good. Enjoy the pipe dream.

Descending into playing silly word games with PD is pointless, it only deflects from the issue at hand so there’s not much more I can or want to add here.  PD should be of the same opinion. 
I’ll go along with Mowgli. I’ll wait to see what our veteran community does with the “Pariah" who by his actions has caused many a jaundiced eye to be cast in the direction of honourable and above reproach former RAN personnel.

CA


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« Last Edit: Thursday07May2009 by CA » Logged
William
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« Reply #164 on: Wednesday06May2009 »

The only light I can shed via a phone call this afternoon is that there was a blue in front of Veterans at the Repat last Monday morning between "Father" George Craig & another SPSN Committee member over GC collecting charity money on Anzac Day for the SPSN when they are not a registered charity. I believe the other Committee person was complaining about committing offences under the law which would ultimately involve him and he would have to seek legal advice as to where he stood and what to do with the money. Apparently also stated that he was going to resign. The other news was that the National President who I believe is (was) Dave Gabel has resigned and the Major is now running the show.

The President and other Committee members have been warned about GC and his carry on's for a long time now until their wannabe egotistical attitudes have done them in.

Only got themselves to blame!
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dodger39
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« Reply #163 on: Wednesday06May2009 »

Fergus,

The pages have only been removed since the week end. Gabel did say on his page, which has now disappeared,(I think it was either Sunday or Monday that I looked at the site)   that changes would be made to the site, but he didn't say what changes.

On the FAQ page it states they are NOT an ex service organization. I'm not sure, but I think that statement was added last year sometime. I couldn't swear to this though.

It is strange though that the only phone number  now available, is that woman's number in Bendigo.
« Last Edit: Wednesday06May2009 by dodger39 » Logged
Fergus
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« Reply #162 on: Wednesday06May2009 »

A “Major” blue has erupted in South Australia at the Service Persons Support Network (SPSN).  Something happened on ANZAC Day that highlighted the illegal nature of their methods in collecting funds.

Much has been said about the personalities in the SPSN. The President Dave Gabel is a non veteran and a known supporter of the Mad Galah mob. He is also a relative to Jenny Bell the vociferous South Australian dilettante meddler in veterans affairs.  Gabel surrounded himself with unsavoury characters like the unordained wannabe Padre George Craig who is a member of a Catholic church splinter, schismatic group and disciple of Jim Wiltshire of Mad Galah infamy. Then there was Paul Dignon, infamous for his distracting and failed attempt to organise the dissenting and ANZAC Day disruptive Orange Organisation from which sprang the now loony “Mad Galahs” led by Barry Corse and Jim Wiltshire.

Then onto the scene, as SPSN Secretary, came the ex Major Lady who made serious corruption and  sexual allegations against Royal Military College Administration and Cadets, and distributed an image of Jesus Christ nailed upside down to a cross sporting an engorged penis. 

Gabel’s crew were indeed an interesting mob of misfits some of who set about illegally raising funds for SPSN and brought the wrath of bureaucracy upon the SPSN for that illegal activity.

Although the ex Major Lady has some problems (ask Derryn Hinch about them) she appears to have executed a “surgical” coup d’`etat at SPSN, sacked people and taken over.  Much information has disappeared from the SPSN web site except for the “Slouch Hat” chocolates and the “Digger Bears” created and marketed by the ex Major Lady.

The South Australian phone numbers for SPSN have now been moved to Bendigo in Victoria.

 Does anyone know the ins and outs of what is going on in South Australia and Bendigo?

SPSN is a would be quasi Ex Service Organisation that is not wanted, not needed and filled with misfits, it sprang from nowhere overnight, and with a bit of luck its demise will be just as rapid. 

« Last Edit: Friday08May2009 by Fergus » Logged
Zion
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« Reply #161 on: Wednesday06May2009 »

QUOTE FROM PETER DENVER

"I seriously doubt that China will release any of his documentation about his service history again.   We tried that once before on another Forum, which I'm sure some of you are familiar with.   The owner of the site and one of his administrators as well as some of the members of the forum continuously challanged us to "put up or shut up."   Finally we advised them we would email the documentation to the owner for it to be displayed on the forum as proof of what we had been saying.    Guess what happened....  Did it appear on the forum?  No, Zip, Zilch, Nada, Nyet, not a bloody thing."

Peter AVM has never requested copies of any Hammal documents be sent to us. AVM has challenged China Hammal to produce all documentation which may clear up many questions regarding his behaviour and Service.

The way to do this is for Hammal to give you the documents and written permission to publish them in here. You, as a Forum member, can easily post any relevant attachments to your posts which you deem necessary.
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« Reply #160 on: Tuesday05May2009 »

As PL said, yes he is, but only those who served in the cavalry and need his help.
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« Reply #159 on: Tuesday05May2009 »

Mowgli:  Did he commit an act of Commonwealth Fraud?  Yes.   It is public knonwledge.  You and I both know that there are reasons for, and levels of seriousness in any crime.   Thats why there are different penalties handed out for crimes that come under the same category.   He pleaded guilty and accepted the court's punishment.

Did he make a mistake in committing this crime?   Yes.   Mowgli, you used the words, "there is something about the old Aussie culture we grew up in....."   Absolutely correct Mowgli there is.   There are other things about the old Aussie culture,  have a listen to John Williamson's song "True Blue" sometime.  Especially the bit about "Standing by your mate, when he's in a fight."   You can't get any more Australian than John Williamson, he hits the nail right on the head.

I've known China since 1972, many many years before this all started.   Simply because he did something wrong in societies eyes is not reason enough to turn my back on him.   Obviously you and I have vastly different standards and levels of support for mates.   Sorry Mowgli, but I like my standards and levels of support for mates better than yours.

Cassius:  I am well aware of the number of ex Army people highlighted on this websight.   I was being specific about Grunter's comments of Navy life and service.

I know absolutely nothing about what happened to the Army service personnel on the ground in Vietnam except what I have read in varioius books.    Unfortunately there are many conflicting recollections about various events, times, places and situations.   Because I was never there, I refuse to enter into any debate about any event the Army was involved on the ground in Vietnam.   I've said it before, and I will say it again, the Army veterans who were caught up in the middle of it in Vietnam will always have my utmost respect.

Grunter:  I do understand that 40 years after Vietnam, many people like yourself still have severe problems in dealing with their time there and the resulting trauma.   Although most Vietnam Veterans are now getting at least part of the support they should have got when they first came home,  from time to time we occasionally get a Army Vietnam vets who walk into our office in Perth needing help.  We have had phone calls from concerned people that one of their Vietnam vet mates are not travelling very well and ask us if we can help.   We try and help them all.   At the moment about 30% of our claims come from Army people who have had recent service in the Middle East or Peacekeeping areas.   I hope you eventually find peace in your life.

To everybody else reading this thread:   it is quite obvious that we could go round and round in circles over this and never come to an agreement.    I seriously doubt that China will release any of his documentation about his service history again.   We tried that once before on another Forum, which I'm sure some of you are familiar with.   The owner of the site and one of his administrators as well as some of the members of the forum continuously challanged us to "put up or shut up."   Finally we advised them we would email the documentation to the owner for it to be displayed on the forum as proof of what we had been saying.    Guess what happened....  Did it appear on the forum?  No, Zip, Zilch, Nada, Nyet, not a bloody thing.  Instead after a few days of waiting for it to appear, I told them they were a pack of hypocrites and that I had intentionally used their website to prove that, it didn't matter what we provided them with they were never going to believe it or publish it.   Guess what,  they couldn't accept the truth and they banned me.   China's thread disappeared  quicker than grease lightening off their website.   

I don't think there is much point trying to defend my mate anymore on the forum, as nothing I say will ever convince some people here.   I will say this however.   There are legal avenues you can take to ascertain his entitlement to wear the RSVN medal.   Try the Federal Police.   If you can get the Federal Police to charge him and have him convicted of illegally wearing the RSVN Medal, I will be the first to publically apologize to all of you on this website that have been offended by his action and for defending him over this matter.   I don't think I can be any fairer than that.

Many people are under the impression that all files are made public after 30 years.    Well that is generally true, with the exception of files that have been "Masked" by someone, somewhere with the authority to put that kind of restriction on a file.    I sent the following information to ANZMI on the 17th March 2009, after some of my Association Newsletter appeared on the China Hammal page.   I had hoped they would put it up on the thread about China for all to see.   It didn't happen.

Log onto naa.gov.au   then click on records search.   in the new page type HAMMAL in the keywords section.   Five files will appear.  Three of them relate to ROQUE CHARLES HAMMAL - R106976.    That number is his RAN Official Number.   If you open these files, you will see a number of documents that include information already on ANZMI, all of which is public knowledge.   Some of those documents have had sections "expunged."   There are also three blue envelopes clearly marked "DO NOT OPEN."    The dates the masks were applied were in October 2003, which is 30 years after the date of some of the documents contained in the blue envelopes as listed on the covers of the envelopes.

China had absolutely no authority to have these documents expunged or "Masked" and he does not know who did.   Whoever did it, had a reason for doing it.  I have no idea what is contained in them, as I have never asked him.  It is none of my business.   But it is curious and interesting that a lowly stoker in the RAN in 1973 would have 3 sections of his service file still sealed after all this time, isn't it?

I wish you all well and hope that some day you can sort out your demons.

Peter Denver
« Last Edit: Tuesday05May2009 by PD » Logged
CA
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« Reply #158 on: Tuesday05May2009 »

"Can CA tell us that the ANZMi exposure was held up until the very last minute so as not to interfere with and predjudice DVA SIG invetigations?"

Only a quick reply for the moment, sorry Mowgli.

Answer. Reference the Hammal case, yes, most definitely.  There were others as well.

It was of prime importance to know where DVA was going with some individuals. How did we know why and when to delay an exposure?  Name one government department of the time that didn’t leak like a sieve. There was quite a bit of “shared knowledge” floating around, some of ours got veterans got off the hook and some saw veterans in court.

Read the ANZMI Joe Brain case for a prime example of waiting for DVA to do their thing before making a move.
http://www.anzmi.net/cases.html  (with the flaming “Busted” sign)   http://www.anzmi.net/brain/brain.html  
Note the dates on the news articles attached, 28 Sept and 20 Oct 05.  Note the original CPMH publication date of 20 Oct 05.

CA


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« Last Edit: Tuesday05May2009 by Cassius » Logged
grunter
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« Reply #157 on: Tuesday05May2009 »

G'DAY PETER

I answered YOUR post; so my points were navy and your mate specific.
TO answer your question.
A few ANZAC Days ago a bloke i knew from way back when, (Army) turned up at my local RSL late on ANZAC Day with a rack to be proud of.

ICB (he was ginger beer) Silver Star and a few others.
Next morning i started the rounds of the mates next work to find out that although he did spend time with the Team, his name did not rate a Sliver Star and the other Viet awards he was wearing.

To have a think; i took the dog for a walk and he must have been waiting for me; as he drove up and handed me a large envelop with ALL the medals & ICB smashed to bits.
I exposed another wannabee to the local RSL Sub Branch, he was also Army.
He had faked his service to the local MP who was backing him?

So regardless of service my attitude is the same, like i said that previous post was specific to the subject.
And yes i have met a few Army who never walked outside the wire, but did not pretend they did 

BTW i enjoyed both trips on the Ferry in particular the one home and i've never hidden that fact.
As my comments are in a book about the Ferry.
However i have issues from my service that i am still dealing with.....................
G.

 
   
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« Reply #156 on: Tuesday05May2009 »

Grunter:   Do your concerns about Navy blokes wanting respect also apply to the many Army and RAAF clowns who have embellished their service records and decorations?  Or is this just a Navy bashing sentiment? 

If you go to the AVM homepage here http://www.austvetmatters.net/ and the Updates page here http://www.austvetmatters.net/updates.html you will see it is abundantly clear that most of the frauds and wannabes mentioned on AVM are ex Army.
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Mowgli
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« Reply #155 on: Monday04May2009 »

Does anyone really care any more about what phony claims of Vietnam service Hammal made to get the TPI in the first place?
Should we worry about the blatant offences he committed and still walked free?  Unlike two Army veterans who were gaoled for committing the very same offences i.e. Commonwealth fraud.
Does anyone really care about what he might come up with now in the way of documentation to show he’s fairdinkum this time?  It would only be more arsepaper and not worth a glance.

The stripping of his OAM by the GG showed the man for what he is. Determinations of his character were made then and there and in the main he came up reeking of a foul stench that many of us could not bear.  Smarmy con man are ten a penny back in Hong Kong, it’s a way of life, but there’s something about the old Aussie culture we grew up in that says they are not, and will not, be tolerated here.

What lies in store for China Hammal in the coming years?  Continued adoration from his merry band in WA for his fine work in gaining benefits for equally obnoxious liars perhaps, but what about the times he must move outside that safety zone into a veteran community where some members spent more time lying in a muddy shellscrape or paddling around knee deep in wet season mud at a FSPB for longer than he spent swanning around offshore with his major concern being a Coke machine that kncocked off his last 10 cent piece?

DVA is paying him now, thankful that the prick is not screaming “suicide” down the phone on a daily basis and more than likely considered him yesterdays news the moment he got his brand new second-shot TPI +.  All DVA hands are now nicely washed in Pontius Pilate fashion after making sure the door didn’t hit him in the arse on the way out. 

Think about what can now be seen by some of us as gross inequity.
Are there opinions on the “Hammal-DVA affair” we haven’t seen yet?  Either way, for or against?
What brought about this exceptional precedent?
How were you treated by DVA when you put in claims?  A bit rough? With care and sensitivity? 
Do you think Hammal was treated the second time round as every other veteran has always been and/or will be treated in the future? 
Was there something different or exceedingly special about Hammal that made DVA back off? 
Did his well practiced reverse racism bleating work on our very politically correct Labor Govt?
Did DVA throw their hands in the air and give in just to get rid of him? 
Did DVA make a mistake in their initial invetigations resulting in a senior SIG investigator being sacked, removed, shoved sideways, and then try to atone for that gross error?
Can CA tell us that the ANZMi exposure was held up until the very last minute so as not to interfere with and predjudice DVA SIG invetigations? 

If a consensus of opinion arrives at “Good DVA”, the kudos will spread ever so slowly. On the other hand, “Bad DVA” and the word will spread like wildfire?  I don’t suggest veterans rise up and make demands on DVA for explanations?  What’s done is done and there’ll be no answers.  What we as individual veterans finally make up our minds to be fact, will be unshakable fact, right or wrong, Peter Denver’s explanations notwithstanding.  I don’t understand how he can call a person who was disgraced in front of the entire nation a good mate. It’s beyond me and that sort of thing generates thoughts of more than mere mateship.

CA will surely have something to say about PD’s latest posts and I don’t want to step on his toes. But, you are the people who will sit in full and final judgment on this slimy piece of work.  You genuine vets who have read a little about him for a better understanding or even know more intimate facts about this major swindler can judge him with even more certainty now you’ve been alerted to what I and others firmly believe to be a shamelessly convenient  DVA cave-in.

Vietnam veterans clubs, orgs, and groups have the right to deny admittance or membership to those they deem to be of unsavoury character. Would you let him in your R&SL club, even as a visitor?  His very first whining report on the Orange RSL after he fled WA said “the scran is shit” but he still went on to try and run things there until given the boot by members who saw straight through him. I doubt he’ll darken that doorstep again. 

I believe that while this forum is not yet widely known within our small veteran community, it soon will be.  DVA will be watching and noting the reactions posted here just as they monitor other vets chats lists etc to garner the current mood of vets.  We'll never know how they might react to what gets posted here but the displeasure and disbelief registered will be plainly evident.
 
I’m sure ANZMI will publish a scathing update on Hammal and his second-shot TPI in their own time.  PD has kindly provided them with some fighting words which I’m sure those blokes will take head on.

Mowgli
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« Reply #154 on: Monday04May2009 »

Grunter:   Do your concerns about Navy blokes wanting respect also apply to the many Army and RAAF clowns who have embellished their service records and decorations?  Or is this just a Navy bashing sentiment?   Sure, the Navy guys simply by their choice of the armed services they volunteered for didn't have to go through situations that Army personnel like yourself went through.   However I am sure that there were also plenty of Army support personnel who served in Vietnam, and never went anywhere near any combat areas.   You were one of many who were in the middle of horrible, terrible, frightening situations, and you and those of you who had to go through that have always had, and always will have my utmost respect.     

The Navy personnel simply served on whatever ship they were posted to, and the ship went into whatever situation it was directed to.   Some people were involved in exchanges of gunfire, many were not.  That is not their fault.  It appears that from your Service History post that you do not have a very high opinion of the Navy.  That is sad as at the end of the day we are/were all part of the ADF family.

Peter Denver
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grunter
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« Reply #153 on: Monday04May2009 »

G'DAY

Don't get me wrong i have a few issues of my own about your "mate" in relation to him wearing heaps of medals when he should be honest and wear what he has been issued. In particular wearing the Vietnamese Campaign medal for barely 2 weeks in SVN waters???

While i did a whole GRUNT Tour, on my feet, with my Pack on my back, including shite prickly heat.
No 3 squares a day; sailing the ocean wave wearing clean clothes and not have to fear what you could not see 100yards away in the scrub.
Stolen Valor is what the Yanks call it; if you Navy blokes want respect as Veterans?
Then get clowns like your mate to do the right thing; because his crap; just makes you all look like galahs!  WITH NO CREDIBILITY!

The post is only about DVA getting a smack in the head from the AAT because they failed to follow simple rules of fairness and procedure. The DVA like us as 'customers' have to follow they rules, they did not and got caught out! Simple.

   
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« Reply #152 on: Monday04May2009 »

Thank you Grunter for putting that last thread of yours up about the AAT appeal.   It confirms my honesty to all on this thread so far, in relation to what I know about the China Hammal case.     For the SIG to recommend that his TPI be revoked without his appeal being complete was not the smartest thing to do.   

I have absolutely nothing to gain from this.   I knew that as soon as I posted here I would be subjected to very hostile responses.  I've been down that road before trying to help a mate clear his name.  This is the whole reason why I have tried to be completely honest.   There is no point in lying or trying to deceive.  Firstly it's not my way of doing things,  and secondly telling lies means that sooner or later you are going to get caught.

Peter Denver
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dodger39
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« Reply #151 on: Monday04May2009 »

Who or what is the "AAVVWA" - does not sound familar to me?

 http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm
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« Reply #150 on: Monday04May2009 »

He is still assisting veterans
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« Reply #149 on: Monday04May2009 »

Who or what is the "AAVVWA" - does not sound familar to me?
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« Reply #148 on: Monday04May2009 »

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/aat/2007/1946.html

13 November 2007
   
Ms N Isenberg, Senior Member

   1. Mr Hammal is an ex-serviceman who received a pension at the Special Rate (“TPI”) under the Veterans’ Entitlement Act 1986 (“VEA”). An investigation was conducted by the Special Investigations Group (“SIG”) of the Department of Veterans’ Affairs (“the Department”) and, as a result, in February 2006, Mr Hammal was given a notice to show cause why his TPI should not be revoked. In order to respond he requested the following in his first Freedom of Information (“FOI”) request:
         1. A true copy of my full Service Medical Records.
         2. A true copy of my full Service Personal Files.
         3. A true copy of my DVA files from the first date of my application for my Disabilities Pension applications to the last entry of my file including any of your Departmental notes and medical report’s (sic) in my file.
         4. A true copy of my DVA files from the first date of my application for my Service Pension applications to the last entry of my file including any of your Departmental notes and medical report’s (sic) in my file.
         5. A true copy of any investigations reports or request for on going investigations of me.
   2. Only some documents were provided to him. The Department claimed exemption from production of other documents on various grounds under the Freedom of Information Act 1982 (“FOI Act”):
          * Subsection 37(1)(a) - disclosure would be prejudicial to a current investigation
          * Subsection 37(1)(b) - disclosure of a confidential source
          * Subsection 40(1)(d) - Substantial and adverse effect on the proper and efficient conduct of the operations of the agency and disclosure would be contrary to the public interest
          * Subsection 41(1) - personal information about third parties
          * Section 42 – legal professional privilege
   3. The decision was affirmed on review and Mr Hammal now seeks review of that decision.
   4. Notwithstanding that Mr Hammal’s FOI request had not been concluded, thereby impeding his response to the notice to show cause, he was formally advised that his TPI was to be revoked in December 2006. At the same time he was also informed that his matter had been referred to the Department of Public Prosecutions (“DPP”).
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« Reply #147 on: Monday04May2009 »

PQ,

Sack: to dismiss esp. summarily.   Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary.

Dismiss:  to remove from position or service.   Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary.

At no time did I say the investigator was "sacked."   That is your terminology not mine.   I am very careful about what I say and write.  I used the term "dismissal" because as far as I know he could have been transferred to another department within DVA.  He was no longer employed as the Director of the Special Investigations Group.    It's not playing with semantics. It's what I stated.    If I use a particular word I will admit to it simply because it's in black and white with my name on it.   But I will not admit to a word that I did not write or say.


Peter Denver





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PQ
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« Reply #146 on: Monday04May2009 »


"............. and also which ultimately resulted in the dismissal of the Director of the Special Investigation Group of DVA over this case.

Peter Denver"

From your post of Friday 1 May, #2 on this thread.

I speak English, I think, and in my opinion, "dismissed" also means "sacked". To say otherwise (refer to your underlining of 'sacked') is just playing semantics.
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« Reply #145 on: Monday04May2009 »

PQ:   Could you please advise me and the readers here where "Peter Denver also stated that a DVA employee had been sacked over the Hammal investigation."

Samsung:  Could you please advise me and the readers here where "Peter Denver has juggled words to create the impression that the evidence presented to the Section 31 Review, much of which I understand was based on ANZMI information was overturned at Appeal."   China's father was an ex Royal Navy sailor based at HMS TAMAR in Hong Kong in the early 1960s.   He spoke fluent Cantonese, and this was the language of choice in their home as his mother could not speak English when he was a young boy. 

Through out this entire thread, I am not aware that I have juggled, changed, deceived or manipulated anything on this thread so far.   I have simply told the truth as I know it.   Apart from helping China, by typing out his appeal and various other letters to people, I did not have any other involvement with either his AAT or VRB appearances.   The matter of his AAT appeal is a public document and you can look it up if you wish.   His VRB appeal was a private matter between him and DVA.   To the best of my knowledge, the transcript of that appeal has never been made public, so how people can make accurate statements about it is beyond my understanding.    As far as I know China has never publically released the VRB appeal findings to anyone.  So if anyone has a copy of his appeal hearing at the VRB, it would be interesting to know where and how they managed to get a copy of it.

I had nothing to do with how the AAT and the VRB decided to conduct their hearings.   These people are much smarter and more highly qualified than I will ever be.   How the VRB and the AAT decide to hear a case is their decision, not mine.   I was never a Doctor, Lawyer or a high ranking Military Officer.   I was not in attendance at either of the two hearings nor was I required to give any kind of evidence at the hearings. 

Peter Denver
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Ethelred
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« Reply #144 on: Monday04May2009 »

 Undecided

Well after reading all this stuff in detail I would say it all goes back to what Cassius had to say. So really it's over to China Hammal to produce documentation which clears this matter up.

Nobody can do this but Hammal, period.

I find it very strange that an RAN recruit was accepted into service who had great difficulty speaking and writing English. Even during times of high unemployment in those days, and especially in the Senior Service, basic literacy and numeracy were essential. On top of that when Hong Kong was a British Colony, and even today as far as I know, English was a compulsory second language. I feel sure English would have been commonly used in China's home as a child because of his mixed parentage.

I am disappointed that Peter Denver has juggled words to create the impression that the evidence presented to the Sect 31 Review, much of which I understand was based on ANZMI information, was over turned at Appeal. It is now clear this was not the case and that evidence remains intact. It is clear China Hammal simply lodged a new claim which was successful.

There is no use me waffling on any more . It goes back to Hammal. He must clear his own name, and he has it in his power to do so.
« Last Edit: Monday04May2009 by Samsung » Logged
PD
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« Reply #143 on: Monday04May2009 »

CA:  Sorry to disappoint you, but you are wrong again.   I was not on HMAS PERTH in 1974.   I left the ship in October 1973, and was shore based at HMAS CERBERUS in Victoria until June 1975. 

I did not get promoted to Chief Stoker until the 15/1/81.  Sorry about that CA, you are wrong again.

You write about my play on words, and then you go and add the word "new" into a sentence that I wrote months ago, and completely change the context of the sentence. How hypocritical is that?

reinstated:  to restore to a previous effective state.    Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary

restored:  to bring back to or put back into a former or original state.   Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary

Not really much difference is their CA

Yes I used the word re-instated in a post here.   Unfortunately the one you highlighted in bold quotes me as writing restored.  As they both mean the same thing CA, which one would you prefer.   By the way ANZMI used reinstated and reinstatement in their post about China having his TPI restored.

Yes we did fly China over here for ANZAC Day.   The total donations received were $1680 and receipts were issued for all donations as we said we would.   His return air ticket with Virgin Air was $459. This left a balance of $1221 which was presented to him as a gift in the presence of about 25 people who turned up for a BBQ to catch up with him.    Unfortunately there were many others who could not make it because of the distance they had to travel.

You know CA in a way I do understand your animosity towards China.  I'm sure there are many veterans here who would like to know how it all started.   Given that his case is so high profile and that the barrow has been well and truely pushed by ANZMI.  I'm sure that ANZMI has exposed wannabes in the past, and good on them for doing so.  Having said that, I also believe that ANZMI have got things wrong in the past.  I still believe that ANZMI were used to get China, by certain people in the veteran community for reasons known only to them .  Just as these same people complained to DVA about him.  Of course DVA were obliged to check complaints.  Sadly the people conducting the investigation did not do it right.  Yes it costs the taxpayers millions, and it should not have gone that far.   But is that China's fault?   He had a right to defend himself.   He tried to advise DVA where to check for certain information, and the investigator did not do it.   Had he done so, I seriously doubt that his TPI would have been taken off him in the first place.

I really don't know how you can possibly say he had "connections at Russell Offices, Canberra, who protected him from prying eyes."    He was just a stoker.  Why would anyone want to protect  a lowly stoker?  What are your thoughts on this?

Many concerned veterans would like to know the circumstances of his investigation, and how he lost his TPI.   I'm also sure they would also like to know why he was successful at the AAT and the VRB.   Maybe some day he will tell you.  It's not my place to divulge his private or personal life.   All he wants to do is to be left alone. Unfortunately people keep bringing it up.

You know CA we have a DVA/AAT/VRB system.  It might not be the best in the world, but its the one we have.   People are entitled to use that system, thats what it's there for.   At the end of the day the referee/judge/arbitrator heard and read the evidence as presented.  They then made a decision.   It might be the wrong one in your eyes, and the eyes of many others, but the avenues of appeal were there for the unsuccessful party, I don't know why this option was not taken by them.     

You are right, you and I will never agree about this as long as our bums point to the ground. 

At the ANVVWA we  do the best we can to help veterans of all the branches of the Australian Defence Forces.  We are all volunteers just trying to give something back to the veteran community.   Slam me if you want to, but please have some respect for the 20 or so people who work at ANVVWA trying to help veterans.

Peter Denver
« Last Edit: Monday04May2009 by PD » Logged
CA
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« Reply #142 on: Sunday03May2009 »

"Peter Denver also stated that a DVA employee had been sacked over the Hammal investigation"

Very doubful PQ.
The lead SIG investigator dealing with Hammal, "W", did go private not long after and if dismissal was the reason then it would have been over another case involving another vet residing in another country.

Hammal has got some dirt on someone on high.  I feel so sure about this that I'm almost at the point of adding "blackmailer" to my descriptions of him. A lack of proof is the only thing holding me back so no more to be said about that because it's only my opinion, for now.

CA.
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CA
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« Reply #141 on: Sunday03May2009 »

"As well as China, two other ANZMI cases are particularly interesting - Ron Roberts and Reg Newton. Do you know if these two are still active in the veterans scene?"

I don't really know Sky. We're going back a few years there. To 2006 in Newton's case update and maybe 2002 on Roberts.
Roberts was never really active in the veteran community, he was more a one man sideshow.  He's  probably still flapping his gums in a different loc. The TV interview didn't do much for him where he was living at the time so I can only guess at a change of scene.  Dicks like him never give up. Hell be propping up a bar somewhere bullshitting to anyone who'll listen.

Newton might be a different story because he had a connection to the 2/19th Bn Association run by Roger Perry who used him as a show pony to attract membership.  Perry is a shameless bastard who could still be trotting Newton out to address the gullible.  I doubt he'd be seen now with the high profiles he used to hang around with. Former RSM Army Wally Thompson wouldn't be putting up with him.

So many of these wannabes changed locs and if no further reports came in, that was that.

Some of the most blatant and disruptive wannabes we dealt with were tracked by vets and we were able to update them easily. Brian Day and Barry Wright who skipped off to different states come to mind. Then there's today's AVM hot topic, China.  No one really gives a stuff where he is right now. If he says under the radar until he deigns to rise and personally explain himself and his actions, that will do nicely.

CA
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PQ
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« Reply #140 on: Sunday03May2009 »

Peter Denver also stated that a DVA employee had been sacked over the Hammal investigation.
Not so. My (third hand) info is in fact two PS employees were moved up in grade and given commendations.

Mention the name Hammal in DVA in either WA or NSW and watch them run for cover and ring up the contracted high powered SC barrister. The red lights flash, and the till is locked tight as a drum, ASP.

He cost taxpayers millions of dollars and untold hours of public servant's time with his fraudulent claims, and has dragged the name of many genuine RAN claimants though the mud.

ANZMI has done the veteran community a great service in exposing this thief, and they deserve our full and heartfelt applause.
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« Reply #139 on: Sunday03May2009 »

CA

As well as China, two other ANZMI cases are particularly interesting - Ron Roberts and Reg Newton. Do you know if these two are still active in the veterans scene?

Cheers

Sky
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« Reply #138 on: Sunday03May2009 »

Are there any members here who had their TPI, other compensation payments or pensions rescinded for being lying bastards? Get a new one or get the complete set again, easy.

Peter Denver.
"Cassius and CA.   Its a pity you believe the rubbish posted about him on ANZMI.   As a person who helped him get his TPI re-instated you really need to check your facts before you slander him"

Yes PD, we should check facts, which we have, and you shouldn’t play with words.  You mislead everyone here with this “helped him get his TPI re-instated”  His TPI wasn’t “re-instated” at all, was it?

”DVA investigated the complaint against him and his TPI was removed”   Correct and then you, as a Chief Stoker on HMAS Perth in 1974 helped him with some brand new claims (May 1974 Skyhawk crash, was it Pete?) and Hammal finished up with an equally brand new TPI. Correct?  No re-instatement, brand new with maybe a little back pay to the claim date. That’s why you organised the whip around to get him to Perth. Did you actually fly him there and back?  I promise I won't ask about what happened to the donations if you didn't.  Celebrations all round somewhere or other. “We stuck it up DVA boys, the beers are on me”  Far too clever PD.

CA
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« Reply #137 on: Sunday03May2009 »

Note the bold font, mine, and ask yourselves how those words can be applied to a new TPI grant that has nothing to do with the TPI that was stripped from him.

CA

"Quite often I get asked how our Association founder is getting on these days. Those of you that know China Hammal are probably aware that there were people in the veteran community that did not like him, and complained to DVA that  his status as a TPI was not based on service related conditions. These complaints resulted in DVA investigators coming to the conclusion that he was not entitled to his TPI pension, and subsequently took it off him.   As a result of these malicious complaints from other veterans, he had no money, had been advised he had to repay over $230,000 to DVA, was unable to work, was reduced to handouts from charitable organizations, and  was often on the very edge of giving up the will to live.  (not that suicide crap again, surely. CA)
Those of us who knew the man, refused to accept the decision by the DVA investigators, and we stood along side him as mates.    We supported and assisted him financially to survive, helped him to get his VRB Appeal together, and he finally had his day at the VRB in January 2008.   
The VRB heard his appeal, and they accepted the evidence that China presented, that his (new) claim was genuine.  This was the same evidence, that China had advised the DVA investigators was available if they would look at it during their investigation.   They did not do it.  China won his appeal and his TPI status was restored.   He received all the back pay that had been withheld.  DVA have not lodged an appeal against the decision handed down by the VRB.   What those people who call themselves veterans did to another veteran was unforgivable in my book.   They are not worthy of the title veteran.     The truth prevailed.   
 
Peter Denver
Chairman



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« Reply #136 on: Sunday03May2009 »

Association Chairman, Peter Denver.
"Both China and I have attempted to refute the rubbish shown on the ANZMI website with hard evidence of its inaccuracy.   ANZMI have never bothered to respond to our challanges to provide any concrete evidence to support the rubbish they have listed there, nor have they bothered to correct the latest piece of rubbish they have written about about him and about him coming to WA for ANZAC Day"


HELPING A MATE

http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/news/Newsletter%20Nov%202008.pdf

QUOTE FROM ANVVWA NEWSLETTER
Some of you may remember our Association founder  China Hammal, and may be aware of the disgusting inquisition that he had to endure at the hands of DVA investigators in which he lost his TPI status as a result of complaints that were made against him by other veterans in the community, who for reasons best known to themselves decided that he was not entitled to his TPI.   I am sure that those of you who know him are also aware that he won his case at the VRB, and his TPI was restored.   
Sadly there are still people out there who will not let it go, and they continue to hassle him about the medals he wears, which he believes he is entitled to wear, and which his detractors have never proved that he is not entitled to wear them.    This has upset him so much that he no longer participates in Remembrance Day, Vietnam Veterans Day, or ANZAC Day Services and the march in NSW where he now lives.
A motion was put forward at our last Association meeting that we try and get China over here for ANZAC Day 2009.   His financial situation is such that he cannot afford to pay his own way over here, as he is still trying to repay debts as a result of losing his TPI. It was agreed that we would try and raise the cost of his return airfare amongst ourselves.   As such we have started a private fund raiser in the office called "China Hammal – ANZAC Day 2009."    Please Note: No Association Funds will be used for this cause.
Anyone who would like to help us get China over here for ANZAC Day 2009 so he can be with his mates on this important day in the veteran community, can send a donation to our office either by cheque or money order made out to Peter Denver  our ANVVWA Chairman or Carole Matthews our ANVVWA Secretary.   Please include a note saying it is for "China Hammal - ANZAC Day 2009", and not a donation to our Association.  You will be issued with a receipt provided you include your return address, and the money will be kept in a private safe until we have sufficient to purchase his return airfare.   Any money left over after purchasing his plane ticket, from the donations received will be given to China as a gift from his mates to help him out financially.   In the event that this falls through, and he does not come over, you will be given a refund of your donation less any postage costs etc.   Further details including amount raised, when and where you can catch up with him will be detailed in the March 2009 Newsletter.
China helped a lot of people out there, and I'm sure that some of you would like to catch up with him again.

* HAMMAL_Newsletter_Nov_2008.pdf (465.15 KB - downloaded 507 times.)
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« Reply #135 on: Sunday03May2009 »

Hammal’s true medal entitlements are pictured in the ANZMI exposure. He would have been awarded-issued-sent the VLSM quite legitimately around 1993.  Add the “everyman and his dog” ADM to the ANZMI list of entitlements and that’s his lot.

Can anyone really see Defence or some other department holding stocks of the Campaign Medal for those who applied twenty three or more years after the end of our Vietnam involvement?  Can you imagine any such department going through old records to find out which poor deserving fellow missed out and then firing one off in the post?  Get real PD, just how thick are you?  Tell Hammal to get up on his hind legs and speak for himself for a change.

If any service medal isn’t stamped or engraved with the man’s name and number, it’s a “buy your own”  Having said that, we all know many veterans wear copies on commemorative occasions due to a high rate of theft from the backs of chairs in watering holes, and that’s entirely sensible.  Veterans with them on the day know who's who and what's what.  Reportedly last ANZAC Day some vets urged the removal of unentitled Campaign Medals from a couple of racks by the time they meet again.   Medalling up with phony service awards is a serious offence.  They are not Boy Scout badges to be added for learning to tie a knot.

Put it down as yet another Hammal lie and if he has any documents to support the issue of the medal, it’s probably another case of document forgery which he is reportedly quite a dab hand at.  The only legitimate paperwork he'd have for that award is a Christie's delivery slip.

PD. Did he tell you about the Jana Wendt interview a few years back?  Even a trained investigative reporter like her had rarely met such a sly and evasive individual.  Did he table the racist card that day? “Whitey like to keep the Chinaman down”?  I’ll bet he did.

CA
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« Reply #134 on: Sunday03May2009 »

"What is being said is Pensions Officers and Advocates have a legal and moral obligation to refuse to handle balantly fraudulent claims....and don't tell us experienced, honourable and ethical Officers and Advocates can't tell liars and frauds from genuine claimants"

Read an advocate's letter to ANZMI here  http://www.anzmi.net/quick/quick.html  At top of page and under "OPERATION  "MASSEY HARRIS" - THE AFTERMATH"

Whether this highly trained, exceptionally talented, moral, and dedicated advocate is still assisting veterans is unknown. If he gave it all away because of Quick's deceit it's a damn shame.
The NSW ESO that eventually assisted Quick in a successful TPI claim is known.  Another ANZMI exposed D&E PL wannabe working from that office fixed him up in fine style.

The advocate.
" >>>>I will not represent people from a particular part of NSW"  (Batemans Bay area. CA)
"In conclusion, this matter left me with a very bitter taste in my mouth and the taste still lingers"

CA


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Zion
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« Reply #133 on: Sunday03May2009 »

Let's get something clear, once and for all time on this thread.

This is being said for the benefit of those who can't read plain English and who can't comprehend what is being said or who refuse to comprehend what is being said..

Nobody is saying Pensions Officers and Advocates have any right to investigate claims.

What is being said is Pensions Officers and Advocates have a legal and moral obligation to refuse to handle balantly fraudulent claims....and don't tell us experienced, honourable and ethical Officers and Advocates can't tell liars and frauds from genuine claimants.

No more nonsensical responses from apologists for liars and frauds please.
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dodger39
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« Reply #132 on: Sunday03May2009 »

Sorry I didn't reply instantly as I needed to check a few things.

CA:   In response to your post about why he wears the RSVN medal, he states that  based on documentation provided by the Department of Defence (Navy) which checked his pay and allowances files some years ago, the Department of Defence confirmed to him that he was entitled to the medal and he subsequently applied for it.    He states that the medal arrived in a registered letter some time in about 1997 from the Department of Defence.    It is not engraved with his name or official number on it.   There was no covering letter with the medal possibly because the Republic of South Vietnam no longer existed in 1997.     I am not even aware if there were ever any covering letters issued by the RSVN with this medal, like those we receive for Australian medals.     This matter came up during his appeals to the AAT and the VRB.   Upon examining documentation provided, both these bodies were satisfied that the documentation was original and decided not to take this matter further.   

 
 

Peter Denver

I have a problem with the highlighted sentence, in that, he has previously stated "that in or around mid to late 1996 I received my entitled Medals for Vietnam"

Note he says 1996, you say 1997. Also he uses the word MEDALS (plural) in this statement by him.

 
« Last Edit: Sunday03May2009 by dodger39 » Logged
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« Reply #131 on: Sunday03May2009 »

I was reading another veteran’s forum and noticed a post where a former CPMH member was quoted as saying the Hammal case took four years for them to complete.
The CPMH Hammal exposure was published around Christmas Day 2003 meaning a beginning was made in late 1999 and before my time.
I can quite easily go along with the four year investigation and research statement. Hammal would scream about suing anyone who even looked sideways at his ridiculous claims of RAN service that he pursued reporters with to get his head in the papers. He was the big man in WA veteran’s circles in those days and had connections at Russell Offices Canberra who, illegally, protected him from prying eyes. The situation was delicate, somewhat dangerous, and had to be dealt with carefully while still extracting the items of major importance to CPMH and it’s successful operations. They were the facts, facts, and then more facts.
Hammal had to be handled with special care in the early days in that he had so many wannabe hangers-on who owed him for their TPIs, pensions, or personal loans.  It would have been nearly impossible to sort out who was a factual source of information and who was an accomplice trying to set up an investigator at a time when the internet was nowhere as identity secure as it is now.
Eventually the verifiable stories starting coming our way and they were cross checked extensively. It was good information that came from men who were seen as respectable men and not some acolyte crony or even a veteran trying to get even for a real or imagined Hammal insult or slur.
As Richard Bigwood said in one of the Don Tate videos, “Who’d have thought that thirty years after the war all the records would be available to the public”  Exactly, who ever thought that would happen?  Certainly not all the wannabe arseholes who’d been getting away with their crap for that many years.
Remember that Hammal’s one and only short trip to Vietnam waters was in late 1971. Add the thirty year privacy policy covering the release of the service records of those no longer serving to that and it wasn’t until 2002 that his records could be legally obtained.
As I wrote before, I wasn’t heavily involved in the Hammal case but the men who were had plugged away in those intervening years and kept at it even after the records were in hand. The was no room for mistakes and they made not a one. Hammal’s man Peter Denver can write whatever horseshit he likes but Hammal remains an indefensible liar, thief and national disgrace.  He’s a whining blight on the Vietnam Veteran community and should never show his face when and where honourable veterans gather on commemorative days.

CA


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Fergus
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« Reply #130 on: Saturday02May2009 »

les

This topic was started to point out that fraudulent claims are clogging up the DVA system and causing stress to veterans in need. An example was given of a fraudulent claim processed through the system.

In one of your responses you say:   

“We should be very careful with the way we go knocking fellow veterans that are applying for disability pensions. We are not here to judge the validity of an individuals claim. If they make a false claim then I’m sure DVA will weed it out”

I absolutely abhor clichés` however it is obvious that you are part of the clogging problem.

You also pose the question.  “What gives a Pension Officer or Advocate the right to investigate the merits of an individuals claim”.  The fact that you even ask the question indicates a penchant for dogma and a lack of common sense and ethics. We are not talking about "iffy" claims where a claimant was part of a proven incident and may or may not have been damaged, we are talking about outrageous claims - like being damaged from witnessing the relentless torture of women and children over a five day period aboard an Australian war ship. The leaking coffins and blood soaked bandages aboard an RAAF Hercules. The secret mission rescue of POWs from New Guinea by a bloke who wasn't even in the Army at the time.

Incidentally which best describes you.

1.   A Veteran.
2.   An ex full time serviceman
3.   An ex member of the Army reserve 

This question is asked in relation to your first quoted passage above.

Aye

Fergus
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cicero
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« Reply #129 on: Saturday02May2009 »

and then in some 'spurious' claims do Wrightway Research come into the plot.  I have had dealings with Wrightway on several matters, and I know they do their level best to seek the truth..........and like many organisations, they get it wrong sometimes.

I cant go into specifics, but a digger I served with made some outrageous statements in his claim for TPI as severe stressors.........his dates were wrong, and we was not at the place when the events occurred......Wrightway had contacted his Pl Comd as well.......

in most cases DVA get it right..............if the evidence is there .....

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« Reply #128 on: Saturday02May2009 »

I agree with CA on Hammal......this prick has been exposed correctly and legitimately based on evidence by ANZMI......and like many exposed, has failed to rebut one fact....EFF him like the rest who pretend to be what they will never be.


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« Reply #127 on: Saturday02May2009 »

CA:   In response to your post about why he wears the RSVN medal, he states that  based on documentation provided by the Department of Defence (Navy) which checked his pay and allowances files some years ago, the Department of Defence confirmed to him that he was entitled to the medal and he subsequently applied for it.    He states that the medal arrived in a registered letter some time in about 1997 from the Department of Defence.   It is not engraved with his name or official number on it.   There was no covering letter with the medal possibly because the Republic of South Vietnam no longer existed in 1997.     I am not even aware if there were ever any covering letters issued by the RSVN with this medal, like those we receive for Australian medals.     This matter came up during his appeals to the AAT and the VRB.   Upon examining documentation provided, both these bodies were satisfied that the documentation was original and decided not to take this matter further.

PD.  Thanks for your reply, especially on how Hammal was “issued” the RSVN Campaign Medal. I’ve run across these “late un-named, un-numbered issues” before, that usually came from Christie’s in Sydney, and had been involved in the removal of such items from the racks of other wannabes. At least one RSL I know of has done the same thing to members found posing in similar fashion.
I’m sure all of us are aware of the conditions that applied to the Campaign Medal.

I refer you to RAN records which indicate.
“October 1971 to 14 October 1971 11 days – the Swan visited Vung Tau Harbour on 6-7 October 1971” (Hammal aboard)
”6 December 1971 to 11 December 1971 6 days – the Swan visited Vung Tau Harbour on 8-9 December 1971” (No Hammal)
“HMAS Swan was allocated for (escort) service from 4 Oct 71 to 14 Oct 71 and accordingly departed Singapore on 4 Oct, met up with HMAS Sydney on 5 Oct, arrived and left Vung Tau on 6 Oct and arrived Manila on 14 Oct”

That was Hammal's one and only venture into Vietnam waters and was dated port to port i.e. Singapore to Manila, not time spent in Vietnam waters to the 100 nautical mile mark.
In 1971 escort ships moved into Vung Tau Harbour ahead of HMAS Sydney to sweep the mooring loc and then escort the ship in. They then moved well back out to sea sailing in zig zag patterns until required to escort Sydney back out to sea, usually after only some few  hours on the same day. Around 0600H to 1200H from memory.  Escort ships did not anchor and Sydney did not moor in the harbour overnight.

“Cassius and CA.   Its a pity you believe the rubbish posted about him on ANZMI.   As a person who helped him get his TPI re-instated you really need to check your facts before you slander him.  He has never charged any veteran who he helped, and I challange you to name one person who he charged”

There are facts PD and most of them are clearly displayed on the ANZMI website.  Slander is spoken by the way but I’ll defame and vilify the bastard in writing from here to eternity if I have to.

To “charge” and to “firmly suggest” donations be made after applications proved successful are not so different. Cover your arse semantics really.
You want names to go along with what I wrote about the RAN welfare assn “What ships mate” “pre-filled-out” “sign here mate” claims forms?  I’ve got names but you clearly think me a fool. I didn’t spend years gaining the trust of veterans, who even now communicate with me on matters wannabe, to be dropping their IDs to the likes of you and your wannabe mate.
Names? Search the AAT website using “Vung Tau Harbour-scare charges-enemy diver-napalm on Vung Tau-rockets fired from shore” I’m quite sure there are many names of your association members there who kicked back a few $$ for some well developed “advice”  Is the “Soldier’s body - dead man’s ice” wanker one of your mob? That was original, I must say.  Almost as good as Molly Muller’s “Indon heads rolling around in a shower cubicle”

Reference Hammal’s bullshit about covert operations in Vietnam. All I can say is that during the lengthy CPMH investigations into the wannabe, in which I played a minor role as a researcher only, many reports were received from disgusted ex-RAN personnel regaling us with his outlandish tales of derring-do. They were quite childish as is the greater majority of that brand of horseshit from wannabes like him who think everyone around them are stupid enough to believe their tripe.

I’ll let you into a little CPMH-ANZMI secret PD.  We never ever fired off all our ammo in one hit, we always had a back up supply and plenty of it. There’s still a lot of info on Hammal in safe keeping which may or may not see the light of day, who knows. If Hammal’s head sticks up too far it might be used.  If he keeps a low profile he might be forgotten in time. It’s all up to him, and you too, I guess.

You say Hammal has the right to wear medal rack extension tin shit, aka penile extensions, but that’s not something honest men who regard their service highly do.  Those stupid commem Tin gongs are merely false impressions laid on by wankers for old ladies and children to point at in awe of lengthy and glorious service.  Wasn’t the $65 HMAS SYDNEY commem medal, as worn by Hammal, one of the first of that kind of thing?  It’s a pity he and others didn’t remove them when RAN personnel finally got the VLSM in ’93
 
In my mind Hammal is a thief, a liar, a forger, a conman of the worst type, a serial wannabe, and a useless lump who should have been dismissed from any decent veteran’s org long ago. I will never be swayed from those beliefs.
I will admit he has the gift of the gab though. He’s obviously quite the silver-tongued slippery devil style of liar that could have anyone eating out of his hand. He’s exactly the slimy type of prick I despise. A semi-literate racist guru preying on the gullibility of weak men while lining his pockets. In this I’ll refer to one instance only. The scrap brass - copper removed from HMAS Perth (?) before the ship was scuttled. What happened to that?  Hammal transported it all to NSW when he fled WA, didn’t he!  Did you and your membership enjoy any of the benefits of that theft?  Tell the forum members here about that. I’m sure you have many perfectly valid excuses to deny that charge just as you have perfectly valid, in your mind, reasons to defend him at all times.
It’s known that Hammal can’t write a sentence in English and it’s firmly believed you are merely his under - instruction mouthpiece and letter writer. Let’s see something from him, something actually written by him, to deny all charges.

For whatever reason you and your fellow RAN welfare members slavishly follow this nationally disgraced liar (OAM stripped by the GG) is entirely your business and I couldn’t give a rat’s arse why you do, but, I must say that along the way he has managed to diminish and denigrate the service of many ex-RAN personnel who gained a TPI or lesser benefits through honourable war service. Who now cannot have a quiet chuckle at the ex-Sailor who drops the news that he’s a TPI due to “hazardous” war service aboard a ship that spent a matter of hours or minutes in Vung Tau Harbour or steaming 100NM out to sea. The immediate thought and sometimes question is “Did China get that for you?”

Your opinion is quite the opposite of mine and neither will ever change so we’ll stop going around in circles here and leave it up to the people who count.  Decent and honourable veterans can make up their own minds by reading the Hammal story-evidence on the ANZMI website and compare it to what you have to say. 
http://www.anzmi.net/cases.html   http://www.anzmi.net/hammal/hammal.html

ANZMI has listed Hammal as among the top ten wannabes.
“One of Australia's top 10 wannabes on Long Tan Day 2006, Orange, New South Wales.   This blatant fraud is still playing the "War Veteran" with his Vietnamese Campaign Medal, (4th from the left on his medals bar) and his silly "Tin" trinkets”
Guess who wrote that PD?

You and your fellow fawning Hammal acolytes, who we haven’t heard from as yet, will never convince me he’s worthy of acceptance into our Vietnam Veteran ranks. He’s a pariah.  I’d like my use of that term to be clearly understood.
Pariah “one that is despised or rejected”

CA


* hmassydneymedal.jpg (8.28 KB, 102x247 - viewed 625 times.)
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PQ
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« Reply #126 on: Saturday02May2009 »

Hehehe, Pete.  Grin

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.
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80s
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« Reply #125 on: Saturday02May2009 »

"Les:   He wears Tin Medals as some people call them, because there is no law anywhere in Australia that says he cannot.   He, like thousands of other veterans choose to wear them for their own reasons.  Did you have a look around you on ANZAC Day at the number of people wearing commemorative medals?    Does it really affect your life that much that some people choose to wear a commemoration medal?   It's not really a big deal except in the minds of those who get upset by it.   I don't wear any commemorative medals, and I don't let it bother me if other people do.  People can wear bottle tops as far as I am concerned, its not that big an issue."

If you cannot see the problem with people trying to represent themselves as more than they are then you are probably in the same boat with them. China is probably one of the best examples of what these wannabee's are all about and the damage they do to the community, 17 days in the AO not even in the thick of it, but on the fringes of a war-zone. Give us a break Peter, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..............

80's

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PD
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« Reply #124 on: Saturday02May2009 »

Cassius:   I won't disclose anything about China without his permisson, I will however discuss your requests with him.  He is entitled to confidentiality and we have actually been down this road before with another group on another website.  I can, and will expand on the outcome of that after I have spoken to China.

Les:   Let me make this quite clear, I do not condone or support frauds and wannabes.   I simply do not let them bother me.    I do however believe that people are entitled to have the presumption of being innocent until found guilty in a court of law, and it is not for an anonymous group of people to decide the guilt or innocence of a person without being in possesson of all the facts and publically declare such.   The simple fact that these people hide behind the cloak of anonymity, is proof enough of their own insecurity, and uncertainty of the true facts.

Whether I am right or wrong in whatever I write, I will always put my name to it.  I will always stand beside a mate and support him, if I believe that the information I have seen is genuine, and I feel that he is being treated unfairly.  If I think he is wrong, then I will have no hesitation in teling him, but I won't desert him.   I would hope that you would do that for one of your mates.  In helping him to prepare his AAT and VRB appeals, my memory of our time serving together on HMAS PERTH,  together with the documentation I saw, and what he managed to obtain from DVA convinced me that his claims were genuine.      It was for the AAT and the VRB to make the final decision.   If you knew the man, you would also know that his English skills, both written and oral are atrocious.  For at least seven or eight years I have been typing his letters and statements for him, translating his "Chinglish" into English.

I am aware of what the criteria is for the awarding of the Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal.     If we went by your version, then there are a couple of thousand navy veterans who served on the Gunline ships who are illegally wearing this medal.   As none of the four ships that served on the Gunline actually did six months on the Gunline during a deployment, I wonder how they qualified?   Maybe a more indepth research by you on this criteria might answer your own question on how he managed to clock up the extra days to qualify.

Perhaps the wearing of commemorative medals is a WA thing, because I saw plenty of veterans from the Army, Navy and RAAF from WW2 onwards wearing commemorative medals on ANZAC Day at various venues throughout Perth.       

Peter Denver
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les
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« Reply #123 on: Saturday02May2009 »

Sorry Peter i didnt encounter any TIN HEROES on ANZAC Day but if i did i would tell them to get the shit off and publicly denigrate them.

Here is the service of old china,

As you can see he spent 17 days in Vietnam on the fluffy Duck.

Engineering Mechanic


Roque Charles HAMMAL

Service No: R106976Service: RANService Between: 4/10/1971 and 11/12/1971
Total Days: 17
Unit:HMAS Swan

This is the requirement for the VCM.

RVN Campaign Medal

 
Republic of Viet Nam Campaign Medal. Sometimes called the "Vietnamese Star" or the "Viet Nam Star." The Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal is awarded to personnel who meet one of the following requirements: a. Served in the Republic of Vietnam for six months during the period of 1 March 1961 and 28 March 1973. b. Served outside the geographical limits of the Republic of Vietnam and contributed direct combat support to the Republic of Vietnam and Armed Forces for six months. Such individuals must meet the criteria established for the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal (for Vietnam) or the Vietnam Service Medal, to qualify for the Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal. c. Six months service is not required for individuals who were wounded by hostile forces; killed in action or otherwise in line of duty; or captured by hostile forces.


Could you please explain to our audience how china managed to clock up the extra 164 days to qualify for this medal. Im sorry now Peter but im beggining to believe you support frauds and wannabees

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Fergus Fairfax
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« Reply #122 on: Saturday02May2009 »

Pensions Officers and Advocates have obligations under Law.

The claims process is not a free for all. The claims process is governed by the Law of the Land.

If a claimant appears before a Pensions Officer or Advocate with a claim or Appeal which is obviously fraudulent the accredited Officer has an obligation under Law to refuse to handle that case. He/she also has a moral obligation to protect the claims system. Don't tell me honest, competent Officers and Advocates cannot sniff out fraud and lies.

Pensions Officers and Advocates do NOT have any power to INVESTIGATE any claim or appeal as has been stated. However they do have obligations under Law.

Additionally if on Appeal for example an Advocate takes an appellant to the VRB for example and at some time during the appeal process or hearing it becomes known to the Advocate that the information which the client has provided is false, the Advocate has a Legal Responsibility to immediately inform the VRB in this case of this information. If the Advocate knowingly withholds such information from the VRB he/she is liable to prosecution under the Crimes Act.

Pensions Officers and Advocates have responsibilities, though some are corrupt and some simply incompetent.

One should ALWAYS  make sure as far as possible that one engages an honest Pensions Officer and Advocate.

Most claimants, Pensions Officers and Advocates are honest and do the best they can. However in the real world frauds and liars exist.
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Zion
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« Reply #121 on: Saturday02May2009 »

Peter for Hammal to clear his name he needs to do some simple things, which are within his power, and his power alone.

Firstly let me say I have passed information to ANZMI on various occasions. I am not an ANZMI member, I never have been and I have no intention of becoming an ANZMI member. I personally, and AVM as a matter of policy, support the work ANZMI does. AVM is not part of ANZMI and never will be.

I passed on quite a lot of verifiable information to ANZMI regarding one particular wannabe whose name is now mentioned on the ANZMI website. I can assure all readers that in my exchanges and dealings with ANZMI I always found "them" to check and double check, so much so that at times I became frustrated with the procedures they have in place for making sure their information is as accurate as can be. Yes, nobody in the world is 100% accurate all the time, but I am convinced that ANZMI is determined to make sure their information is as accurate as they can determine it, and that nobody is named unfairly. In fact I have witnessed them reject information because it can't be proven or substantiated.

Now, to move on to Hammal.

I claim no first hand knowledge of the Hammal case. I do however raise a few points.

Why did the Governor General of the Commonwealth rescind Hammals OAM? Why did Hammal leave Westeran Australia.

Now to the meat of this post.

Hammal, like all citizens, is entitled under Law to publicise all DVA/Defence and other documentation regarding himself and he can do this if he chooses.

Let Hammal publicise his recent AAT Appeal documents, the recent AAT decision, his initial claims forms, the initial decision and the Sect 31 Review where his SR was rescinded. Let him also publish the documentation which states he is entitled to wear the SVN Campaign Medal. Let him also publish his record of Service for all to peruse. Let's not forget that, providing he has claimed no exemptions, his Service documents are publicly available from the National Archives at a cost providing they are over 30 years old.

It is up to Hammal to clear up the many questions about his service and claims history, plus his activities within the http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm

Over to Hammal.
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PD
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« Reply #120 on: Friday01May2009 »

As a young stoker on HMAS SYDNEY in the 1960s I worked in the refigeration plant manufacturing ice, for use by the ships company.  Blocks of ice were manufactured by placing containers filled with fresh water in a tank of brine which was kept below feezing point.    There was always a certain number of blocks of ice kept in the freezer, and it was known as dead man's ice.   My understanding was that it was there if a member of the ship's company died whilst the ship was at sea.   His body could then be covered over and packed in ice until such time as the ship went into a port, when the body would be removed and repatriated back to Australia by air, or the sailor's home port if in Australian waters.  I never heard of any instance where deceased troops were returned to Australia on HMAS SYDNEY.

As far as I can remember, all meat was also packed in cardboard cartons, already cut up into the various cuts of meat as required by the galley. (kitchen)

Peter Denver
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PD
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« Reply #119 on: Friday01May2009 »

Sorry I didn't reply instantly as I needed to check a few things.

CA:   In response to your post about why he wears the RSVN medal, he states that  based on documentation provided by the Department of Defence (Navy) which checked his pay and allowances files some years ago, the Department of Defence confirmed to him that he was entitled to the medal and he subsequently applied for it.    He states that the medal arrived in a registered letter some time in about 1997 from the Department of Defence.   It is not engraved with his name or official number on it.   There was no covering letter with the medal possibly because the Republic of South Vietnam no longer existed in 1997.     I am not even aware if there were ever any covering letters issued by the RSVN with this medal, like those we receive for Australian medals.     This matter came up during his appeals to the AAT and the VRB.   Upon examining documentation provided, both these bodies were satisfied that the documentation was original and decided not to take this matter further.   

I can't remember ever seeing that he stated or wrote that he ever "parachuted into North Vietnam to rescue US POWs and scamper around Hanoi on various covert missions."   Surely you must have read about this somewhere, so I would be very interested, as I'm sure others would be to know where you obtained this information from.  Could you please advise me where I can read this.

Les:   He wears Tin Medals as some people call them, because there is no law anywhere in Australia that says he cannot.   He, like thousands of other veterans choose to wear them for their own reasons.  Did you have a look around you on ANZAC Day at the number of people wearing commemorative medals?    Does it really affect your life that much that some people choose to wear a commemoration medal?   It's not really a big deal except in the minds of those who get upset by it.   I don't wear any commemorative medals, and I don't let it bother me if other people do.  People can wear bottle tops as far as I am concerned, its not that big an issue.

As a matter of interest for those of you who do not know,  China's re-instatement of his TPI had absolutely nothing to do with any service in Vietnam.

DVA had 90 days to appeal the decision of the VRB to re-instate China's TPI.  They did not do so.

Peter Denver
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80s
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« Reply #118 on: Friday01May2009 »

Interesting Email I recieved from a mate.

Veterans' data riddled with errors, says
http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25395062-15306,00.html
Andew Colley | April 28, 2009
THE national auditor has questioned the integrity of Department ofVeterans' Affairs income support payments as a result of its recordmanagement system modification stalling. The Australian National Audit Office in a report last week recommendedmajor improvements to the department's IT governance practices afteridentifying thousands of incomplete or inaccurate client records on itssystems. The report finds also that the agency's IT modernisation program, whichinvolved moving its records from legacy mainframes to newer systems andsoftware, had stalled, with no changeover date in sight. The department distributed about $45 million in pension income-supportpayments to veterans and their surviving dependents last financialyear. It has about 1.5 million clients on its books, of which only about317,000 are active. A spokesman for Veterans' Affairs Minister Alan Griffin said the officehad found no evidence that veterans or their dependants had been paidincorrectly or denied payments. The department was, however, unable toprovide a spokesperson prepared to make more detailed official commentsabout the ANAO report. The report questions the department's ability to make reliabledecisions. It also discovered what it describes as "data anomalies". An example is 438 clients older than 130 on the department's books,with no recorded date of death. Among other problems with client records, the ANAO found 24,820 clientshad been assigned multiple identification numbers. That was an increase from about 16,983 multiple numbers discovered in a2004 audit by the ANAO. According to the office, most of the problem identification numbersrelated to inactive client records but "the results highlight thepotential for poor data to affect the efficiency and reliability ofDVA's decision-making". The office was particularly critical of the department's management of2500 active records missing crucial information about relatives. At least part of the problem with the department's records relate toits troubled IT modernisation program, called oneDVA, which began in2005. In 2006 the department began migrating data from its heritagesystem (known as the Ad Hoc Inquiry System 2000 or AIS 2000) to a newersystem called Curam. It had intended to switch to the new system and make it theauthoritative source of information under oneDVA. It is understood the department paid $15 million for Curam and servicesto migrate data to it, but the process struck problems and in April2007 a $90 million contract was signed with IBM to maintain itsheritage systems alongside Curam. "Despite DVA's considerable project planning, data testing andcleansing to prepare the heritage data for transfer into Curam,unanticipated data incompatibility and integration issues emergedduring the migration of the data," the ANAO report says. "To enable the transfer of the data into Curam, heritage records withblank date-of-birth fields were populated by DVA with dummy data." The department is yet to provide the ANAO with a date when themigration process will be complete.=================================================================================With thanks to Andrew Colley and The Australian. ??Regards, Jim Wiltshire 107 Phillips St Wodonga 3690  Phn:  02 6024 1079.   Mob: 0412 161 047.Politicians and Media come and go. While ever there is Government, VETERANS ARE FOREVER

80's
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PQ
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« Reply #117 on: Friday01May2009 »

With a few exceptions, most advocates and pensions officers are volunteers.

They don't have to accept anyone as their client. If the client tells them obvious lies in an attempt to defraud the system, they can (and do, I'm sure) tell them to piss off.

An advocate can't hide behind the "detached observer" defence. If he submits someone's claim, knowing full well it is bullshit, he are as complicit in the fraud as the claimant.

The easy answer is to tell the thieving rort merchant to go and find someone else to do his claim. No doubt he will unearth some like minded lowlife who knows the way around the claims system.
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les
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« Reply #116 on: Friday01May2009 »

Thank You Peter Denver for those words of insight.

You almost had me convinced about china our modern day war hero except for the sad fact that he is an untrustworthy TIN HERO fraudulently wearing the VCM.

He has embellished his service with little trinkets to place his self importance above his fellow veterans. You can never trust a TIN HERO as TIN HEROES lack the intestinal fortitude to be honest about their genuine service.

He openly displays himself as a deceitful bullshit artist and should never have been recommended for an OAM. Now everyman and his dog world wide can admire china up in lights on ANZMI. Well he wanted everyone to make a big fuss all over his mighty rack of medals.

He could at least have the common courtesy to thank ANZMI for bending over backwards in providing him his fame world wide.

Would he like some more pictures of himself on AVM? Would that make him feel a little bit better?

What a despicable disgrace.
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CA
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« Reply #115 on: Friday01May2009 »

Sure is.  I wanted to ask if his RAN number and name are engraved on the back of it.
I wouldn't have asked for the dates he parachuted in to North Vietnam to rescue US POWs and scamper around Hanoi on various covert missions. Who could remember those with exactness after all this time.

CA.