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Tate hates Vietnam Vets like the War Protestors Did
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80s
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« Reply #25 on: Thursday23April2009 »

Perhaps the debate should be IS ANZMI RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ALLEGED ATTACK, Cav?

80's
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Cav
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« Reply #24 on: Thursday23April2009 »

Re CAV & CA fair enough you have old issues how about starting an other thread CA v CAV?
Or better still swop emails so we don't end up looking like Galahs ourselves?

Yes you are right Grunter, my posts were off topic, but surely I am allowed to defend myself from what I believe to be unfair attacks against me from another member of this forum.

I'd certainly like to debate CA on a few issues too. 

How about it Curt?

Do you want to start a new thread, on, well I dunno, maybe something like this....

"Should ANZMI be held responsible for the attack on Sabina, Peter Kowalski's sister, in Brisbane Vietnam Veterans Day 2004?"

Curt?

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grunter
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« Reply #23 on: Thursday23April2009 »

G'DAY

Excuse my ignorance about medals in general but if china according to the posts is a pusser?
Then why does he wear the Vietnamese medal, that being the green & white ribbon with star?

I thought that was issues for 180 days on the ground in country?
Then if he was navy and did not sent foot incountry how come the medal?

I know of a bloke who was at Coral and in the thick of it; yet as he did not make 180(?) days he was not awarded this one how come? 

Re CAV & CA fair enough you have old issues how about starting an other thread CA v CAV?
Or better still swop emails so we don't end up looking like Galahs ourselves?

 
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80s
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« Reply #22 on: Wednesday22April2009 »

Yeah Les, my equation really draws the point as to why the Tin Hero feels the need to flesh out his rack a bit more and (in his/her mind) increase their presitige in the laymans eyes. But if we all did it to equal amounts then it would defeat the purpose. So if a poor Nasho with his ANSM and ADM (what a joke that medal became) decides to add a few of tin to compete with his Vietnam veteran mates so he has four, if we all applied the Hammel rule, his Vet mates would expand their racks from 4 or 5 to 10 0r eleven with "appropriate" Tin (if there is such a thing). The Hammel rule would give equity to all i regards to Tin and basically would destroy the Walter Mitty's reason for adding it in the first place as as his own rack expanded the so would the racks on the chests of the men he seeks to emulate, compete with or be compared (confused with).

Unless someone can offer a reason as to why these guys wear Tin, other than personal ego and misrepresentation, then the Hammel rule is spot on in highlighting the motivation for this junk. Wouldbee's if they couldbee's.

80's
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les
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« Reply #21 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

I guess if we go by that mathematical equasion 80s the worlds metal resources will slowly deplete which would increase costs to purchase the medals subsequently placing them out of reach to the average pensioner.

Yeah let CAV stay its adding some humour to the forum.
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cicero
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« Reply #20 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Whilst off topic, can I suggest to those who are trading words, this:

Lets stick to issues and topics raised....not asides at each other.  If we have differences thats good, but lets not get into the same shit that Tate, and his lot of Mad Galahs do to the good veterans.

Chill out fellas, please
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80s
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« Reply #19 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Yes Cav has made no secret of that, I myself am a supporter of what ANZMI does on their site (Cav can vouche for my stance on it, I have argued my position with him at length), but CA your the one coming across all agro and ordering people around, chill out and lets debate the issues not personalities of the posters.

80's
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Cav
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« Reply #18 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

I hold ANZMI responsible for the attack on Sabina, Peter Kowalski's sister, who was wearing Peter's medals in Brisbane on Vietnam Veterans Day in 2004.  Peter was KIA.
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CA
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« Reply #17 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Cav.
Have you at anytime or anywhere accused ANZMI personnel of attacking a women?
No waffling, no slithering around the question. YES OR NO?

"I am willing to debate veterans issues based on the merits of the argument and the evidence used to support such arguments"

Good, the more the merrier, but stay within acceptable parameters.

CA
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Cav
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« Reply #16 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Well Curt, finally a reaction after all these years.

Can I make the following points.

I have not called anyone names on this forum; nor threatened anyone. Yet I have been attacked, vilified and falsely accused.

I don't lie.

I have not lied about my dealings with ANZMI.

I did not come onto this forum to promote my blog.  I used it to defend myself against your attacks.

I am still a member of Michael Wass' forum.  My most recent thread starter was about my son who is with 8/9 RAR.

I am willing to debate veterans issues based on the merits of the argument and the evidence used to support such arguments.  If that means I am a threat to this forum then you are right Curt.  I don't belong here.



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CA
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« Reply #15 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

You have no defence Ian.

You've come to this forum to advertise your blog and show us what a tough guy you were by taking on ANZMI all on your lonesome, piss off and try it somewhere else if you want to pursue that line.
You were tossed off the Mike Waas (?) forum for exactly the same thing. Bitch, moan, whine >>>> boot.
Stop that shit now and I mean right f***** NOW.

Freedom of speech is more than welcome. Your bleating crap doesn't come under that, it comes under self serving, "look at me", meaningless twaddle.

Me and my mates suffered a lot for your lies and childish behaviour. Years of building up respect for accuracy and even fairness, even with the DVA Fraud mob nearly went down the tubes.

You would be pleased to know that it took us a quite a while to regain that respect from veterans that we had built up over those years.

Stay on the forum and watch your Ps and Qs. Drift outside the mainstream topics too far and we'll colour you gone.

I'll discuss ANZMI and my time there with any sensible person, but not you Ian.

CA.
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Cav
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« Reply #14 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Here's a link to an old ANZMI page on Tin. http://www.anzmi.net/pressrelease/pressrelease.html
The men sporting Tin in the photos were Cav platoon mates and eventually named by him. When Admin refused to remove the page, Cavanough went on his childish revenge rampage around the internet.
He will be disconnected at Admin's leisure.

CA.

Hi Curt

May I be allowed to defend myself?

http://cav.bigblog.com.au/index.do?type=category&catId=17120

There is some healthy debate there, including a comment from an old sparing partner CJ (not to be confused with CA who has apparently requested that I be banned from here)

CJ

25/11/2007 2:55:11 PM

Gees Cav - aren't you glad you have this blog?

Saves going out into the cold night to be beaten up.


It brought a smile to my face.

See, you don't have to be nasty when making a point.

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dodger39
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« Reply #13 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

...
They deserve all the ridicule they get from veterans.

I couldn't agree more.

I personally think that it should be illegal for the medal mounting industry to actually mount officially recognised/awarded medals with tinnies. If they don't know the difference between the real thing and tinnies, then they shouldn't be in the business.
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PQ
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« Reply #12 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

It might not be illegal to wear tin medals, but it is sure as hell not illegal to point and laugh at the pencil dicked fools who think they are impressing people by wearing this rubbish.

They deserve all the ridicule they get from veterans.
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dodger39
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« Reply #11 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

We seem to have gone a bit off this threads topic. So to try and fetch it back on topic, here is a quote from the ANZMI page, from a press release by The Minister Assisting the Minister for Defence, Bruce Billson,

"“Further, there are a number of unofficial medals which are sold commercially and are not recognized through the Australian honours system. These awards should not be worn at public events on Anzac Day,”

This was pointed out to China, his response to it was

"should not means that it is not law ... it is a suggestion.... "

Technically speaking, he is correct, so if he want's to carry on wearing his tinnies there is really nothing to stop him. Although why he would want to add tinnies to his legitamately awarded medals is beyond me.
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80s
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« Reply #10 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Yes I acknowledge your points, however I just think we need to be open to hearing broad opinions on all topics. I dont believe Cav to be a supporter of the Mad Galahs, but I also dont fear taking him on in a debate, so I would welcome his comments contrey or not. The evidence presented here is very hard to dispute so any who disagree, well, I say, bring it on.

80's
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Zion
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« Reply #9 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Boys CA can speak for himself and reply for himself.

Let's be clear.

80s we know you are a younger Veteran than most in here.

Now let's very briefly lay out a little history.

Some elements of the Veteran community have never ever resiled or refrained from standing up for our entitlements and health care. Many have displayed great courage and resilience in standing up for what is right for......yes....YOU. Against all the odds and all the naysayers. Many of these wonderfull Veterans have suffered along the way, some have died earlier than they otherwise would,some have been hospitalised and some have had to depart because of ill health. None of these people have ever made any claim to fame, fortune or notoriety. They want no medals.

Along come the mad galahs headed up by frauds, wannabes and liars. These pathetic creatures didn't speak rationally about the matters which affect us all, but immediately lurched into abuse, lies, personal attacks, vile language and threats and getting down and dirty by getting into peoples private lives and calling their heroism into doubt....people like Bob Buick MM.


My point?

The many many people who have been maligned, abused, threatened and defamed by the mad galahs have displayed remarkable patience and forebearance.

Lesser people WOULD have got physical.

« Last Edit: Tuesday21April2009 by Cassius » Logged

80s
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« Reply #8 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

CA one minute you claim to be not violent and then make a comment stating you could have badly hurt Cav if you wanted too. I dont think this is helpful, as a very physical younger vet I am sure I could knock the heads off of most on here, but surely thats not what we are all about, is it. That sort of thing doesnt proove our points only our fighting ability. I say let those who disagree with the information presented here have their say as long as they stick to the topic being debated and dont get personal.

Just my opinion.

80's
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CA
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« Reply #7 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Do we really need to disconnect Cav at all, I think all opinions are healthy to hear and he would bring out some very good debating points on broader veteran matters?

80's

80's
I have a problem with vets who blatantly lie in order to direct charges of street assault on a woman at me and my former ANZMI mates. We abhorred violence and at all times urged veterans to not use it. Had we been the violent people Cav suggests we were and succumbed to initial emotions, Ian Cav would now be using a stick in his mouth to type.
If anyone else feels Cav is worth retaining here for what could be intelligent debate, have your say. Admin might overturn my request.

CA
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80s
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« Reply #6 on: Tuesday21April2009 »

Do we really need to disconnect Cav at all, I think all opinions are healthy to hear and he would bring out some very good debating points on broader veteran matters?

80's
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CA
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« Reply #5 on: Monday20April2009 »

Here's a link to an old ANZMI page on Tin. http://www.anzmi.net/pressrelease/pressrelease.html
The men sporting Tin in the photos were Cav platoon mates and eventually named by him. When Admin refused to remove the page, Cavanough went on his childish revenge rampage around the internet.
He will be disconnected at Admin's leisure.

CA.
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cicero
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« Reply #4 on: Monday20April2009 »

Tin...cop this recollection.

only a few years ago I was at a certain Sgts Mess on Anzac Day, and spotted a familiar face, who won the Military Medal in SVN in 67.  The last medal on his rack of many, was the fucking FRONTLINE MEDAL.

I felt sorry for this warrior, simply as he had no need to wear that crap.....his MM was testimony to his gallantry, not the TIN

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80s
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« Reply #3 on: Monday20April2009 »

I think that should be not worn at all, and definitely not with legitimate gongs, wear em on the right if you have too, but the wearer will still look like a wally.

80's
« Last Edit: Tuesday21April2009 by 80s » Logged
cavman
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« Reply #2 on: Sunday19April2009 »

By way of an example:  If a tin medal wearer is an RSL member there are no provisions in the RSL's National Constitution for initiating disciplinary action against a member who wears tin medals. 
The provisions of National Rule 21 provide for disciplinary action in respect of certain offences. 
It only applies in repect of the wearing of service medals etc., for which he is not authorised to wear as set out in Rule 21.1(h) below:

"21. Disciplinary Powers of a State Branch Tribunal and Appeals Arising Therefrom
21.1 Subject to Rule 22, if in the opinion of a State Branch Tribunal, a member:
(h) has been guilty of wearing a service medal, award or decoration for which he is not authorised.
that State Branch Tribunal may, subject to this Rule, resolve to impose a penalty
upon him.
"


The difficulty arises from the fact that these tin gongs can be purchased quite legitimately. 
It is my understanding that should one actually have these tinnies, they should be worn at the very end of everything else if indeed somebody has the gall to wear them.
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Zion
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« Reply #1 on: Sunday19April2009 »

From: Fergus Fairfax
To: Fergus Fairfax
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: China Hammal - Wannabe


This is not about the NLA it is about a fraud and a wannabe from the ANZMI site. He was caught out and stripped of his Special Rate because his claim was found to be fraudulent, after lots of machinations from those who support wannabeism his Special Rate has been re-instated as far as can be learned a different set of stressors was presented and hey presto. Read the full and excellent report and the update on the www.anzmi.net report. You have to scroll right to the bottom to read the update of the 7 Mar 2009
 
Aye
 
Fergus
 
HAMMAL  Roque Charles [China]
   10 Sep 06    7 Mar 2009

One of Australia's top 10 wannabes on Long Tan Day 2006, Orange, New South Wales.   This blatant fraud is still playing the "War Veteran" with his Vietnamese Campaign Medal, (4th from the left on his medals bar) and his silly "Tin" trinkets.   (click here for a larger photo)  http://www.anzmi.net/hammal/hammalxx.jpg

Our apologies. This photo was from 2005, not 2006 as we previously wrote. The fact that he was still flouting Commonwealth law at that time remains

Most have read the cases published below about the heroic exploits of some of our infamous wannabes. However this story is about a 'high profiled' Veteran, called 'China' Hammal who has pulled the wool over so many peoples eyes it was very nearly a case of "you can fool all the people all the time."  more http://www.anzmi.net/hammal/hammal.html
------------------------------------------------------

7th March 2009

Hammal has had his TPI Special Rate reinstated – this is a scandalous affair and a sad day for the veteran community

CONTACT ANVVWA  anvvwa@ranveteranswelfare.asn.au

Chairman of the Australian Naval Vietnam Veterans Welfare Association (ANVVWA) http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm Peter Denver has gleefully advised that China Hammal has had his TPI, Special Rate reinstated. Reinstatement has been verbally confirmed by the Department of Veterans Affairs and it is a sad day for truth, honesty and the integrity of Veterans everywhere. This is what Denver has written:

 

“Quite often I get asked how our Association founder is getting on these days. Those of you that know China Hammal are probably aware that there were people in the veteran community that did not like him, and complained to DVA that his status as a TPI was not based on service related conditions. These complaints resulted in DVA investigators coming to the conclusion that he was not entitled to his TPI pension, and subsequently took it off him. As a result of these malicious complaints from other veterans, he had no money, had been advised he had to repay over $230,000 to DVA, was unable to work, was reduced to handouts from charitable organizations, and was often on the very edge of giving up the will to live.   

 

Those of us who knew the man, refused to accept the decision by the DVA investigators, and we stood along side him as mates. We supported and assisted him financially to survive, helped him to get his VRB Appeal together, and he finally had his day at the VRB in January 2008.   

 

The VRB heard his appeal, and they accepted the evidence that China presented, that his claim was genuine.  This was the same evidence, that China had advised the DVA investigators was available if they would look at it during their investigation. They did not do it. China won his appeal and his TPI status was restored. He received all the back pay that had been withheld.DVA have not lodged an appeal against the decision handed down by the VRB. What those people who call themselves veterans did to another veteran was unforgivable in my book.They are not worthy of the title veteran. The truth prevailed.   

 

Peter Denver

Chairman”

 

China Hammal was the founder of ANVVWA http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm and was well known for his ability to “sell” pensions to his Pusser mates. “Just sign the blank application, tell China on which ships you served and he would conjure up all kinds of trauma stressors to get you the TPI Special Rate, and of course there was the donation to ANVVWA for services rendered.” There are many smiling ex Pussers in the Perth WA area who benefited greatly, but dishonestly from China’s legerdemain.

 

After reading the original ANZMI reports on China you will understand that he was/is a thoroughly dishonest and unprincipled human being.

 

Before China was re-instated an article in the ANVVWA http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm Newsletter was included, begging for funds to “Bring China Back to Perth for ANZAC Day 2009”. Here is the article:

 

                                                                    HELPING A MATE

 

Some of you may remember our Association founder  China Hammal, and may be aware of the disgusting inquisition that he had to endure at the hands of DVA investigators in which he lost his TPI status as a result of complaints that were made against him by other veterans in the community, who for reasons best known to themselves decided that he was not entitled to his TPI. I am sure that those of you who know him are also aware that he won his case at the VRB, and his TPI was restored.   

 

Sadly there are still people out there who will not let it go, and they continue to hassle him about the medals he wears, which he believes he is entitled to wear, and which his detractors have never proved that he is not entitled to wear them.This has upset him so much that he no longer participates in Remembrance Day, Vietnam Veterans Day, or ANZAC Day Services and the march in NSW where he now lives.

 

A motion was put forward at our last Association meeting that we try and get China over here for ANZAC Day 2009.His financial situation is such that he cannot afford to pay his own way over here, as he is still trying to repay debts as a result of losing his TPI. It was agreed that we would try and raise the cost of his return airfare amongst ourselves. As such we have started a private fund raiser in the office called "China Hammal – ANZAC Day 2009." Please Note: No Association Funds will be used for this cause.

 

Anyone who would like to help us get China over here for ANZAC Day 2009 so he can be with his mates on this important day in the veteran community, can send a donation to our office either by cheque or money order made out to Peter Denver  our ANVVWA http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm Chairman or Carole Matthews our ANVVWA Secretary. Please include a note saying it is for "China Hammal - ANZAC Day 2009", and not a donation to our Association. You will be issued with a receipt provided you include your return address, and the money will be kept in a private safe until we have sufficient to purchase his return airfare. Any money left over after purchasing his plane ticket, from the donations received will be given to China as a gift from his mates to help him out financially.In the event that this falls through, and he does not come over, you will be given a refund of your donation less any postage costs etc.   Further details including amount raised, when and where you can catch up with him will be detailed in the March 2009 Newsletter.

China helped a lot of people out there, and I'm sure that some of you would like to catch up with him again
 

China Hammal and the ANVVWA http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm must have a filing cabinet full of information about bogus DVA claims lodged from Hammal and his mates. It is guaranteed that there are many nervous Pussers from the area who would show great generosity and donate to China to keep him quiet. 

 

We urge honest veterans to express their dismay at the words and actions of Chairman Peter Denver and this ex RAN Welfare Association and also suggest to DVA, that during their idle time they recheck any DVA benefits claims handled by China Hammal and his mates. Once you know what to look for you may find many anomalies and make some smiles disappear from ANVVWA http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm members.

 

Like in the ANZMI case of Joe Brain (see here http://www.anzmi.net/brain/brain.html ) another crook walks away from DVA laughing. 

 

It is time the Australian Federal Police extended their bailiwick to include cases of DVA fraud. It is a simple fact that the current investigation section of DVA lack the expertise to bring to justice the clever major players involved in DVA fraud.

 

We are reliably advised that a major ESO commanded from Western Australia was well aware of the nature of China’s operation of ANVVWA http://www.ranveteranswelfare.asn.au/index.htm however the potential for membership from the efforts of Hammal and his mob was obviously more important to them than honesty and ethics.  Those who have knowledge about this issue are advised to come forward and advise either ANZMI at information@anzmi.net or  DVA. 

 

DVA are urged to take action to appeal the Hammal VRB decision and again take away that which he has fraudulently gained.
« Last Edit: Sunday19April2009 by Cassius » Logged

80s
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« on: Sunday19April2009 »

Yes commemoratives are an option and according to the Hammal rule (invented by China Hammal), you are allowed by etiquette to use the following formula:

T = R + 1

T is the number of commemoratives allowed.

R is the number of official medals already awarded.

So for mixed rack limits (L) Real and Tin the formula is as follows:

L = R x 2 + 1

L is the total mixed rack limit allowed.

Example:

China has three originals (R), lets calculate his rack limit (L).

L = 3 x 2 + 1

L = 7.

Therefore China's rack limit of mixed Real and Tin is 7. Allowing 3 Real and 4 Tin by this rule. But make sure you don't try to include a Real medal that you are not entitled to as one of your allowed Tin or you could end up in hot water as shown below:

http://www.anzmi.net/hammal/hammal.html

This etiquette is designed to ensure a fair balance of gongs on ANZAC day and to deter "Rack Stacking" with an inappropriate number of Tin awards.

So if a guy has 1 gong he can, using this formula, add 2 Tin for a total of 3.
If he has 2 he can add 3 Tin for a total of 5.
If he has 3 he can add 4 Tin for a total of 7 etc.

At the higher end of the scale if he has 10 he could add up to 11 for a grand total of 21. Now that seems extreme, but that is in accordance with the ratio's by which Tin medals are added to a rack. Its the only way to keep it fair. If we are going to expand our racks with Tin then there has to be equity across the board.

Naturally if all veterans expanded their rack with Tin as such, it may cause a counter reaction by the original members of the Tin Hero's Guild and the World Wannabee Web, as they will need to add more Tin to catch up too other vets and look as warrie. Much like an arms race we could have an escalating Tin race.

If you require any other advice on medal etiquette don't be afraid to ask.

80's


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